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  #341  
Old 09.11.2014, 13:45
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Re: London vs Zurich

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Bengali you mean. Bengal was a province in British India, now broken into two parts - West Bengal in India and Bangladesh.
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BENGALI indeed --- correction in the post above DONE
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  #342  
Old 09.11.2014, 13:54
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Re: London vs Zurich

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Many westerners exoticize the rest of the world, have an ingrained belief that we are all absolutely equal and that cultural barriers can always be overcome. This is unfortunately a flawed one sided view of the world and if as outlined by Der Spieler continues the tolerant west will quite simply decline and be subsumed into history in a century's time. The reverse side of the coin is having a sense of identity, of your own values, appreciating where you come from and understanding that we live in a world of varying degrees of difference depending on where you are. Diversity makes the world a fascinating place.
Many Westerners (probably you included) yes, but a lot more have an ingrained belief that they are superior in all regards. I think you (because you are young and think or have thought in a certain way) idealise the Western world. Very much. Yes, there is more tolerance compared to other places but it's not even near to how you seem to see it.
Btw, those Western gentlemen who go to some places to find their brand new brides aren't thinking we're all equal, rest assured.
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  #343  
Old 09.11.2014, 14:09
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Re: London vs Zurich

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The reason for the rising nationalism is the presence of (radical) liberals who are striving to do their best to eradicate their own cultural identity. Take for example the situation in the UK. The British government insists on the importance of not requiring foreigners to adopt the local culture. The term is called "cultural relativism". According to this principal, all cultures are equal. But this is clearly not the case. If all cultures were equal, then we wouldnt have so many immigrants from the Middle East and Africa in our western societies. The UK government allows these immigrants to send their children to islamic schools, where hate and intolerance is preached, insisting that people must keep their own culture, not realizing that, in fact, their own culture is the sole reason for leaving their country in the first place.
And when these completely different communities grow in size and loom larger, when we have "cities within the cities", then the local people feel threatened and feel obliged to stand their ground. You cannot be tolerant to the intolerant because too much tolerance leads to no tolerance at all.

Europe is an amazing place, so tolerant and open. And the ridiculous thing is that if we continue with that level of tolerance, we would simply return to the position of intolerance 100 years ago.
Bollocks, some people did sleep in their history class.
In every migration class, lecturers will tell you the reason for migration is the pull and the push factors, which among others involve economic reasons (and this also points to the fact that there are still developed and developing countries). Another, intertwining factor, is historical background of migration. A lot of influx of migrants from Africa and Asia coming to UK, for example, are those originating from former colonies/colonised countries. To put it blatantly, it's reasonable for them to migrate to UK or other European countries (including those that formerly colonised them). After all, the current wealth of European countries is partly derived from their colonial practices in the past
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  #344  
Old 09.11.2014, 14:10
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Re: London vs Zurich

Who talked about superiority or idealization? My point is rather different but equal. Until recently and still in some countries, most western countries have such liberal immigration laws that everyone is welcomed and invited to become a westerner. I've already pointed out that I can't go to Asia and become an Asian (as pointed out above take a look at the immigration laws of Japan, South Korea, India, Thailand,...) - yes not even in developed Asia. It's ironic that you say that westerners think they are superior when historically this was precisely the reason that when India and China were at their historic hegemony and when they could have conquered the world they chose not to because of a belief that others perceived as barbarians could not become one of them. Read a history book. There is also a fascinating documentary called Civilization: the west and the rest on how the historic rise of the East was different from the rise of the West

Brothel culture emerged in the East. There is a link in one of the post above to a history book about this. Most of the prostituion here in Asia is consumed locally including in Thailand. However, because due to media in the west, these disgusting old men are held to account.
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  #345  
Old 09.11.2014, 14:32
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Re: London vs Zurich

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when historically this was precisely the reason that when India and China were at their historic hegemony and when they could have conquered the world they chose not to because of a belief that others perceived as barbarians could not become one of them. Read a history book.
More likely that they never had the need to when they were at the peak of their powers. And yes, please go ahead and read history. You can't deny that a good deal of impoverisation of the world, as we see today, was caused by the European colonisation.

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  #346  
Old 09.11.2014, 14:38
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Re: London vs Zurich

Sudeepta, to claim that the condition of the rest of the world is due to western colonization is an argument that would have been valid even twenty years ago but today that period of history is well over. Otherwise, how do you explain the excellent economic situation of countries like Singapore, Hong Kong, Ghana, Malaysia... ? These countries are in a better financial state than many western countries!
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  #347  
Old 09.11.2014, 14:52
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Re: London vs Zurich

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, I'd take you out and introduce you to my girlfriends.
Why didn't you offer to take me out and introduce me to your girlfriends?? (ages ago on that thread about nightlife in Zürich!!)
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  #348  
Old 09.11.2014, 14:56
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Re: London vs Zurich

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Sudeepta, to claim that the condition of the rest of the world is due to western colonization is an argument that would have been valid even twenty years ago but today that period of history is well over. Otherwise, how do you explain the excellent economic situation of countries like Singapore, Hong Kong, Ghana, Malaysia... ? These countries are in a better financial state than many western countries!

In fact such a short list vindicates my point. Some countries haven't regained their past glory yet. And since they indeed had a glorious past does indeed prove that it has nothing much to do with the 'depressive', 'intolerant' culture that they allegedly have. Different countries have managed differently and given some more time I won't be surprised if we have a longer list.

European colonisation has enriched in some ways just as the immigrants are enriching their adopted homes. But overall European Colonisation had a big negative economic drain on their colonies. By the way I didn't make any Sweeping Generalisations. There are many factors why a country is the way it is, European Colonisation is definitely one of the greater contributing factor on the economic front (there is no comparison between 200 years of loot vs 50-60 years of revival).

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  #349  
Old 09.11.2014, 15:17
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Re: London vs Zurich

@ Sudeepta, that was a selection of countries - there are plenty of other countries in an excellent economic situation: Russia, Kuwait, Qatar, Brazil, China.

China has raised more than 600 million out of conditions of abject poverty and created a rapidly expanding middle class comparable to the middle class of the United States.

PS in case you caste me as a biased westerner, here is Lee Kuan Yew's (founder of modern Singapore) view on why India has not risen and wil not rise:-
"When Nehru was in charge I thought India showed promise of becoming a thriving society and a great power but it has not because of its stifling bureaucracy and rigid caste system..."

He does believe however that China will rise:
"It is China's intention to become the greatest country in the world and to be accepted as China not as an honorary member of the West.

Your argument is simply outdated.
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  #350  
Old 09.11.2014, 15:32
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Re: London vs Zurich

@officegirl. Don't worry . The Swiss are fairly obsessed with cleaning so somebody will always come to clean the shelf and dust you off.
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@ Sudeepta - the scale of the abuse of women and children in Far East Asia, India and the Middle East is unmatched compared to other places of the world (I have written a research paper on prostituion and human trafficking)

@ Omtatstat - nationalism is on the rise globally not just in Switzerland - take France, UK, Belgium and Germany but also here in Singapore (the government recently tightened the requirements on foreign residents), Hong Kong (resenting the immigration of mainland Chinese into HK). I think many people are starting to resent the negative effects of globalisation and the erosion of local identity, see this Wall Street Journal article on the global rise of nationalist movements:-

http://m.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424...67658?mobile=y

I honestly believe that the Swiss (and I'm not a native Swiss) are pretty welcoming to foreigners; they just want to preserve their Swissness in the same way that other countries want to preserve their national identity. It's a delicate balancing act between being pro immigration and preserving national identity. Both sides are equally valid and that's why it makes sense to have a selective immigration system like the Aussies have.

@everyone - I'd like to think I would make the effort to learn German although I know from learning mandarin what a huge effort it is (I think German will be easier). I'm very tempted by a return to Switzerland and learning Swiss German in an effort to finally put down roots somewhere. The nature and landscape of Switzerland is also just stunning. It's just that I'm scared of being "left on the shelf" at 34 as I have been kindly reminded by Phos and Switzerlanded.

Career wise both London and Zurich are about equal. I would have a more generalist role in London and a much more specialized role in Zurich. The head office is also in Zurich.
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  #351  
Old 09.11.2014, 15:36
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Re: London vs Zurich

@omtatstat thanks for your vote of optimism!! :-)
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  #352  
Old 09.11.2014, 15:42
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Re: London vs Zurich

I think to celebrate diversity one hand and at the same time refuse it on one's own doorstep, proclaiming oneself conservative, agreeing with extreme limits to immigration..just basically says - one likes being a tourist.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying tourism. Going and looking at other cultures how they live, as long as they are far. Or, trying a little bit, in some expat sheltered biodome.

Same ultra controlling attitude, denouncing global mindfulness and responsibility...just like trying to ultra engineer one's love life.

I can see it maybe appealing and sexy in some pragmatic way...but most people I know will just run (and think something about controlling issues, lack of faith, etc..not hot). Stats prove whatever one wants, incl why opposites and diversity attract.

(I do like the overkill preventative thinking I sense in this thread, tbh..I generally like people who aside of consuming also make a decent effort to analyse, so, take this disclaimer as a thumb up, inspite of the cynical tone. We can over plan. Set lab conditions. And believe it will work..yes.)
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  #353  
Old 09.11.2014, 17:07
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Re: London vs Zurich

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Who talked about superiority or idealization? My point is rather different but equal. Until recently and still in some countries, most western countries have such liberal immigration laws that everyone is welcomed and invited to become a westerner. I've already pointed out that I can't go to Asia and become an Asian (as pointed out above take a look at the immigration laws of Japan, South Korea, India, Thailand,...) - yes not even in developed Asia. It's ironic that you say that westerners think they are superior when historically this was precisely the reason that when India and China were at their historic hegemony and when they could have conquered the world they chose not to because of a belief that others perceived as barbarians could not become one of them. Read a history book. There is also a fascinating documentary called Civilization: the west and the rest on how the historic rise of the East was different from the rise of the West.
Uhmm no..westerner or western is only a concept. Even if I hold any European country's citizenship, that does not make me any westerner. All of my Asian friends who by paper are European citizens never feel or see themselves as westerners. Not sure if this is case in the US or in other western countries. The concept of being westerner itself partly dictates that one should be white, has brown or blonde hair, blue eyes..etc.. etc...




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@ Sudeepta, that was a selection of countries - there are plenty of other countries in an excellent economic situation: Russia, Kuwait, Qatar, Brazil, China.

China has raised more than 600 million out of conditions of abject poverty and created a rapidly expanding middle class comparable to the middle class of the United States.

PS in case you caste me as a biased westerner, here is Lee Kuan Yew's (founder of modern Singapore) view on why India has not risen and wil not rise:-
"When Nehru was in charge I thought India showed promise of becoming a thriving society and a great power but it has not because of its stifling bureaucracy and rigid caste system..."

He does believe however that China will rise:
"It is China's intention to become the greatest country in the world and to be accepted as China not as an honorary member of the West.

Your argument is simply outdated.

Colonial practices did help the European countries to accumulate wealth in the past, which in many ways allow them to be where they are now. Of course, after the dismantling of colonialism, countries have to search for other paths of development.
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  #354  
Old 09.11.2014, 17:15
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Re: London vs Zurich

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@ Sudeepta, that was a selection of countries - there are plenty of other countries in an excellent economic situation: Russia, Kuwait, Qatar, Brazil, China.
Russia wasn't colonized and the occupiers of Brazil assimilated themselves within the society. While what China has achieved is truly remarkable how that is even related with the fact that it was indeed looted by the European colonialists even though not in the same manner and for as long as say India. And in fact how does it deny the economic mischief perpetuated by the Colonist. And how does it even vindicate that the Europeans are more tolerant??

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China has raised more than 600 million out of conditions of abject poverty and created a rapidly expanding middle class comparable to the middle class of the United States.
Much of which is also true for India, for example.

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PS in case you caste me as a biased westerner,
No I don't cast you as a biased Westerner, just a biased person. Your opinion has nothing to with you being a Westerner.

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here is Lee Kuan Yew's (founder of modern Singapore) view on why India has not risen and wil not rise:-
"When Nehru was in charge I thought India showed promise of becoming a thriving society and a great power but it has not because of its stifling bureaucracy and rigid caste system..."
So now it has reduced to only India or what? First you were picking up on the Asians, then Der_Spieler was talking about right wing nationalism in Europe being rooted in immigrants from Africa and Asia being send to Islamic schools which you whole-hearted supported. Contrary to what you say or Lee Kuan Yew might have said, India is thriving, as indeed much of Asia and that has much to do with the fact that these countries are no more colonies of the Western world. The theory you are propounding is simply wrong. With time many of these countries, including India, will achieve better records.

In fact when you say some erstwhile colonies are doing better than some Western countries it further vindicates my stand that with liberation from colonialist former colonies are regaining their footings.

It is very simple actually. There are intolerant Europeans, and intolerant Turks, and intolerant Indians, and Chinese and Vietnamese and of all other race and ethnicity, just as there are tolerant Europeans and Tursk and Indian etc etc.

@FuriousRose was very correct that immigration involves economic reasons and historical background of migration.

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  #355  
Old 09.11.2014, 17:18
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Re: London vs Zurich

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@officegirl. Don't worry . The Swiss are fairly obsessed with cleaning so somebody will always come to clean the shelf and dust you off.
Yes, I guess she does need a bit of dusting off.
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  #356  
Old 09.11.2014, 17:34
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Re: London vs Zurich

well that was jokingly said. I was not implying that she needs to be dusted off-at least not yet.
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Yes, I guess she does need a bit of dusting off.
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  #357  
Old 09.11.2014, 18:40
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Re: London vs Zurich

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Good reason for that. Asian women are more feminine, and more likely to look after a man and treat him better. This is why you see so many western guys with Asian women. On the flip side most western women don't like Asian guys cause they find them too short, and know that Asian men are used to being looked after by Asian women. Most western women simply cannot compete with Asian women these days. A lot of western women no longer posses basic home making skills such as cooking, cleaning, Etc.

Did it ever occur to you to approach men yourself? Why make men do all the work? You could always move to Zurich and approach men, most of them would gladly say yes.

However one thing working against you is your age. You are past your prime years for a woman and you'll probably even have to make an effort, possibly even by approaching guys yourself (oh no, equality!). Most guys do prefer women in their 20's regardless of how old the guy is. Even guys in their 40's will choose a woman in her 20's over a 34 year old woman every time. And rightly so, men had it worse in their 20's when women were going after older men as they have more money. You had your time in your 20's, now your peak is over and its the men's turn to have their pick of the litter with younger women.



I disagree. Almost anywhere is easier to make friends than Switzerland, even if you're friendly. London will be infinitely easier than Zurich for making friends. No contest.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/askmen/...b_2781887.html
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  #358  
Old 09.11.2014, 18:50
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Re: London vs Zurich

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China has raised more than 600 million out of conditions of abject poverty and created a rapidly expanding middle class comparable to the middle class of the United States.

here is Lee Kuan Yew's (founder of modern Singapore) view on why India has not risen and wil not rise:-
"When Nehru was in charge I thought India showed promise of becoming a thriving society and a great power but it has not because of its stifling bureaucracy and rigid caste system..."

He does believe however that China will rise:
"It is China's intention to become the greatest country in the world and to be accepted as China not as an honorary member of the West.

Your argument is simply outdated.
Here is where this is lifted from: http://nationalinterest.org/commenta...ster-asia-8169

And here are some more from the same linked article:
1. In his view, “Westerners have abandoned an ethical basis for society"
2. Will India rival or even surpass China’s rise? The U.S. government recently asked its $50 billion intelligence community this question. Their recently released report, Global Trends 2030, forecasts that “the most rapid growth of the middle class will occur in Asia, with India somewhat ahead of China in the long term.”
3. Being deliberately provocative, Lee says: “India is not a real country. Instead it is thirty-two separate nations that happen to be arrayed along the British rail line.”
4. In the competition between East and West, he expects Asia to overshadow the Euro-Atlantic powers. The principal reasons why have more to do with culture than with numbers.
5. No one will agree with all of Lee's views.

Off-course you pick and choose what supports your confirmation bias.
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Old 09.11.2014, 18:55
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Re: London vs Zurich

Absolutely.

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  #360  
Old 09.11.2014, 19:16
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Re: London vs Zurich

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The reason for the rising nationalism is the presence of (radical) liberals who are striving to do their best to eradicate their own cultural identity. Take for example the situation in the UK. The British government insists on the importance of not requiring foreigners to adopt the local culture. The term is called "cultural relativism". According to this principal, all cultures are equal. But this is clearly not the case. If all cultures were equal, then we wouldnt have so many immigrants from the Middle East and Africa in our western societies. The UK government allows these immigrants to send their children to islamic schools, where hate and intolerance is preached, insisting that people must keep their own culture, not realizing that, in fact, their own culture is the sole reason for leaving their country in the first place.
And when these completely different communities grow in size and loom larger, when we have "cities within the cities", then the local people feel threatened and feel obliged to stand their ground. You cannot be tolerant to the intolerant because too much tolerance leads to no tolerance at all.

Europe is an amazing place, so tolerant and open. And the ridiculous thing is that if we continue with that level of tolerance, we would simply return to the position of intolerance 100 years ago.
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@greenmount - Whose culture did I disrespect? You're right travel does broaden your horizons on the sense that you develop an understanding of other peoples' cultures and values (I learnt some Tamil and mandarin).I came to Asia a much more liberal person than I am today precisely because I have developed an understanding of the Asian perspective on immigration, wealth, family, religion and identity. It's thanks to my time in Asia that today I am far more conservative than I once was.

Many westerners exoticize the rest of the world, have an ingrained belief that we are all absolutely equal and that cultural barriers can always be overcome. This is unfortunately a flawed one sided view of the world and if as outlined by Der Spieler continues the tolerant west will quite simply decline and be subsumed into history in a century's time. The reverse side of the coin is having a sense of identity, of your own values, appreciating where you come from and understanding that we live in a world of varying degrees of difference depending on where you are. Diversity makes the world a fascinating place.

I think the culture issue has moved on into the domain of the ultra-right side of the spectrum. The moderate right has pretty much conceded that in order to participate in the modern world, it must allow the influx of brains and resources from other cultures. I don't think they platform on culture issues anymore. Even the far-right, knowing that the culture/race platform is poisonous, will cloak their platform in other issues; immigration, population control, environmentalism, etc. The moderate Right in Europe is more about national sovereignty and the political hegemony of their citizens, as oppose to handing the reins of their country to a supra-national cabal in Brussels (EU).

I don't think tolerance is a problem. In fact, I think we need more of it. But what is commonly called tolerance is actually naivete and ignorance. Political correctness has prevented discussions about cultures. Just look at this thread. Even curious questions about other cultures are painted as racist intolerance, leaving them unanswered. So it reinforces ignorances. Whereas tolerance is actually the acceptance of things you may not like and agree with, but choose to find a way and process to deal with it. Tolerance should not be about sticking your head in the ground.

Last edited by Phos; 09.11.2014 at 19:34.
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