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  #381  
Old 09.11.2014, 23:00
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Re: London vs Zurich

Trade plus wealth leads to imperialism and not vice versa
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  #382  
Old 09.11.2014, 23:01
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Re: London vs Zurich

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Much of Europe, and perhaps England more so, was the 'third world' by the standards of those days. No wonder there is a certain significance to the term "The Renaissance". Otherwise this term wouldn't have been coined.


That change came about because England was now flush with money. Money that was accumulated from the plunder in the East and down South. It was more successful than the French and the German, the Spanish and the Portugese, the Dutch and the Italian in this endevour and hence it was possible for it to establish this 'cultural' hegemony that you are alluding to. About best of the brains from the whole world.. it will be really interesting if you could list down 5 great Chinese or Indian or Iranian person who achieved some distinction in England in the 17th century (Certainly you aren't suggesting there were no good-brainers in these countries).



So what happened to this culture post WW 2 that first Japan, then China and now even India, Brazil, Indonesia have gone past UK?

The sequence is palpably clear 14th century --> Economic backwaters --> inventions and discoveries --> Success in Colonialism --> Industrial revolution --> Lots of wealth --> Development of Edwardian 'culture' --> Strife in Europe --> World Wars --> Impossible to maintain the colonies --> Freeing the colonies --> The colonies little by little inching toward economic emancipation --> Eclipsing some of the erstwhile super-powers --> 21st century...
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What do you mean Indonesia Brasil, China and the others surpassed the UK? You cannot compare countries by Nominal Gdp because the population numbers are different. Instead, use GDP per capita Then we can talk again.
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  #383  
Old 09.11.2014, 23:02
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Re: London vs Zurich

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Trade plus wealth leads to imperialism and not vice versa
Spot on
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  #384  
Old 09.11.2014, 23:06
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Re: London vs Zurich

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So what happened to this culture post WW 2 that first Japan, then China and now even India, Brazil, Indonesia have gone past UK?
Equilibrium. All those countries dwarf the UK in terms of population, and should rightly surpass it. The only way the UK would is if it tilted the table, as it did.

This force of equilibrium should naturally continue, short of sabotaging it.
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Old 09.11.2014, 23:06
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Re: London vs Zurich

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Well, to me all the above mentioned cities are western. Western is defined not only by Geography but also by culture, economics, and even religion. All the above mentioned cities are located in democracies, in the EU, have long lasting impact on the history if Europe, and are Christian
So USA is not Western (Not in EU)? Australia (Not much impact on European history, not in EU)? Haiti? Peru?

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Old 09.11.2014, 23:08
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Re: London vs Zurich

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So USA is not Western (Not in EU)? Australia (Not much impact on European history, not in EU)? Haiti? Peru?

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These are also western...Japan is also. In my opinion, all democracies with relative gender equality and religious tolerance are western.
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Old 09.11.2014, 23:12
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Re: London vs Zurich

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These are also western...Japan is also. In my opinion, all democracies with relative gender equality and religious tolerance are western.
So Japan is Western, and South Korea is Western, and Russia is Western when we like them, but not when we don't. Japan is no longer Shinto, but Christian.... and all women are treated equally.

You don't know what the hell you are talking about.
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Old 09.11.2014, 23:20
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Re: London vs Zurich

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What do you mean Indonesia Brasil, China and the others surpassed the UK? You cannot compare countries by Nominal Gdp because the population numbers are different. Instead, use GDP per capita Then we can talk again.
Well England was indeed ahead on the GDP absolutely (with its colonies) and it had been thrown to the 10th position now (no more colonies) and some of its colonies which were like 50th have now surpassed it and more will in future. And if that continues then even by per capita England will be surpassed with time. As I said before you can't counter centuries of loot by 50-60 years of revival.

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  #389  
Old 09.11.2014, 23:30
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Re: London vs Zurich

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These are also western...Japan is also. In my opinion, all democracies with relative gender equality and religious tolerance are western.
Relative gender equality? Relative to who, what?
By the way Peru is 87th on GDP per capita, Haiti is 159th. What happened to the 'culture'?
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Old 09.11.2014, 23:39
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Re: London vs Zurich

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What enabled England and other European countries conquer territories during the, say, 16th century ? Why was England, a relatively small Island, able to conquer so much territory and why this was not achieved by the island of Madagascar for example Why did Spain and Portugal managed to conquer South America and not the Incas and Mayas conquer Europe during the 16th century ))
Because they didn't have the need for it. And this in fact proves that it was not the tolerating culture that set you apart, but exactly the opposite. The ability to wage war and kill people, en masse!!

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The fact was that Europe was much more powerful than the rest of the world in the middle ages , as it is more powerful today. Power is not the result of imperialism; the imperialism is the result of an already well-established power
Yeah right. Might is right. Thanks for upholding that 'culture'.

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  #391  
Old 09.11.2014, 23:48
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Re: London vs Zurich

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Well, to me all the above mentioned cities are western. Western is defined not only by Geography but also by culture, economics, and even religion. All the above mentioned cities are located in democracies, in the EU, have long lasting impact on the history if Europe, and are Christian


Well I thought about those cities as they were in the times of Todor Shivkov, Janos Kadar, Cyrankievic, etc. People in Afghanistan regarded their opposition against the USSR as opposition against the WEST


Strange is that the Kingdom of the West / Mamlakah al Maghrebiya whenever being as west as west can be regards itself as part of the ORIENT. Lebanon, the Cradle of the Arab World, was for decades far more democratic than much of Europe.


Spain and Portugal already in the times of Antonio de Oliveira Salazar and General Francisco Franco del Bahamonde were regarded as being the WEST beyond discussion, in spite of the Impression that BOTH were to remain dictatorships for ages to come as late as 1970
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  #392  
Old 10.11.2014, 03:01
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Re: London vs Zurich

I thought this thread was locked... why was it reopened just to throw it to the trolls? Anyway, we can conclude now: The OP should not move to Zurich or London, but instead to Haiti or Peru (for some reasons I did not really understand). If she is set on Western culture, Japan is apparently also an option.

(And I would really like to know what Der_Spieler is drinking as I really need some of that stuff...).
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  #393  
Old 10.11.2014, 07:30
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Re: London vs Zurich

A lot going on here. There are many countries today that are doing far better than the west. How they divide their wealth among their population is a separate issue than the wealth accumulated by a nation. Most of Asia is characterized by extremely elitist vertical societies.

India is probably one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Corruption holds back the growth of a nation. If you read a history of Singapore, rooting out corruption was one of the primary goals of Lee Kuan Yew and I have no doubt that China will make tackling corruption one of its priorities going forward.

There is an NGO (Transparency International) that tracks corruption country by country:-

http://www.transparency.org/country

The rule of law and developed political institutions are the remaining advantages that western countries still have.

@FuriousRose - if you can't become a westerner why do most western countries have integration programs? Why do many European governments have ethnic minorities in them? Why do you see people of all colours of the rainbow on US, UK and French television?

The west needs to start looking after itself and stop intervening abroad. The colonial argument is simply dead - I've already pointed out that many of the richest countries are no longer western.

There is a Chinese proverb which states: "Before you prepare to change the world, look around your house three times." I think the west would do well to stop feeling guilty, start looking out for itself first, and adopt the same pragmatic approach to international relations that much of the rest of the world does (look out for yourself first).
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  #394  
Old 10.11.2014, 08:53
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Re: London vs Zurich

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@FuriousRose - if you can't become a westerner why do most western countries have integration programs? Why do many European governments have ethnic minorities in them? Why do you see people of all colours of the rainbow on US, UK and French television?

The west needs to start looking after itself and stop intervening abroad. The colonial argument is simply dead - I've already pointed out that many of the richest countries are no longer western.

There is a Chinese proverb which states: "Before you prepare to change the world, look around your house three times." I think the west would do well to stop feeling guilty, start looking out for itself first, and adopt the same pragmatic approach to international relations that much of the rest of the world does (look out for yourself first).
The West has not done anything but look after itself. The immigrants are here because the West needs them. There are things they can do that not enough locals do. You'll see this in Zuerich, and how foreigners take up positions that they can't get locals to fill. Many of them at a higher salary than what they average local makes. Some at much lower salaries for jobs that average locals do not want to do.

There is not much of a local culture to take in. The food is bland, the people are cold, unimaginative, closed up and not welcoming. Coming from a culture with much more color, flavor, interaction and soul; why would anyone trade that in for the local culture? That is not much of a value proposition.

As you ask why foreigners are in the West, you'll find your answer when you ask why Corporations are out there.

But I can understand why when you feel like you are losing, you might want to tilt the table and change the rules. Its the typical reaction of the anti-social.
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  #395  
Old 10.11.2014, 09:48
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Re: London vs Zurich

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You claim that the main reasons for migration are not related to the fact that people want to escape an inferior culture but rather because they want to escape economic hardships. However, your argument is flawed for one main reason.

It doesnt concede the possibility that the inferior and, as Office girl puts it, rather racist, culture is one of the main reasons for these economic hardships.
Just think about it. If in the Middle East women had the legal right to participate in the economy as much as men, they women would be much more productive and would significantly increase economic growth. If Pakistan did not stone women for crimes ranging from adulatory to witchcraft, many women (with their whole families) would not just move to the UK. Now as I established how the culture can be a significant part in making a decision to leave a country, imagine what happens when they leave the country but the culture does not leave them ! They simply seed it in the new society.

About colonial rule, I also don`t think it is a valid reason for immigration. Surely, if one has already decided to emigrate, he would rather go to a place where the language and culture are familiar. But colonial rule should not be considered a factor to force the decision to emigrate in the first place. Just think about it. Singapore, Australia, and the USA were former British colonies; however, its not like there is a myriad of immigrants from these countries. And when people from there actually do immigrate to other western societies, they add value to them; in contrast, people from the Middle East and Africa try to impose the same culture they escaped from.

Have a look how Muslims protest in London against the country that gave them home. They are shouting - "Democracy go to hell", "freedom go to hell".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8DtwH5z_s0
If your argument is evident, that these Middle East and Pakistani women, feel somewhat culturally inferior in their home country, we should've seen an influx of these women migrating alone... But what we see is women coming from these countries generally follow their husbands/partners migrating to the western countries. And as Phos pointed out, a lot of Middle East women are highly educated. Even if they're migrating alone, it's mainly due to economic reasons: better jobs, better income.(If you want to refer the "cultural inferiority" to the abuse at their home country), a lot of migrant women actually experience abuse and hostility in their host countries. Again, if you argue that it is "cultural inferiority", why do they then, as you claim, remain imposing the same culture they escape from?

On the colonialism as a reason for migrating, you can't deny there's a lot migrants coming from Anglophone African countries and some Asian countries to the UK, in which the former is the latter colonies. These former British colonies haven't been well developed or are still developing. That's why we don't see a large number of people (not there's no migration at all) migrating from Singapore, Australia, US, etc, which in this case have managed to develop themselves. Similarly, a lot of migrants coming from Francophone African countries to France (interestingly, I read an article the other day, that 14 African countries still pay colonial tax to France since their independence!). I mentioned that historical background of migration is a factor that intertwines with other reasons for migration, which basically refer to economic reason.




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1. Every country in the 14th century was more or less third world to todays standards. Moreover, the difference in economic standards and performance between all countries was miniature. For one reason. All countries had access to the same (non existent) primitive technology.

2. The culture of England after the 18th century became much more open and tolerant to foreigners. The country started importing the best brains in the whole world. English replaced French and German as the preferred language for diplomacy and cultural exchange. As a result, more people started learning English and more people became inclined to moving to England.

3. The cultural shift that marked the end of slavery, the gender equality, and the openness to foreigners allowed England to make a better use of the rising technology; something that others countries failed at because of their bigotry and lack of appreciation for the change.
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Ok, for the sake of arguing, even if I concede that imperialism did in fact increase the wealth of many countries in Europe, answer this then,

What enabled England and other European countries conquer territories during the, say, 16th century ? Why was England, a relatively small Island, able to conquer so much territory and why this was not achieved by the island of Madagascar for example Why did Spain and Portugal managed to conquer South America and not the Incas and Mayas conquer Europe during the 16th century )) The fact was that Europe was much more powerful than the rest of the world in the middle ages , as it is more powerful today. Power is not the result of imperialism; the imperialism is the result of an already well-established power
If you read discussions by historians, China was actually more advanced in terms of knowledge of techniques than many parts of Europe until the Renaissance. Other parts in Africa and Middle East were more or less the same advanced until the beginning of the 16th century. However, as MidfieldGeneral points out, Europe managed to do some internal development (while the rest experienced economic stall) before the conquest, mainly thanks to their ability to accumulate wealth through cheap cash. But as historians point out, colonisation plays a highly critical role in Europe's development.



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...@FuriousRose - if you can't become a westerner why do most western countries have integration programs? Why do many European governments have ethnic minorities in them? Why do you see people of all colours of the rainbow on US, UK and French television?

The west needs to start looking after itself and stop intervening abroad. The colonial argument is simply dead - I've already pointed out that many of the richest countries are no longer western.

There is a Chinese proverb which states: "Before you prepare to change the world, look around your house three times." I think the west would do well to stop feeling guilty, start looking out for itself first, and adopt the same pragmatic approach to international relations that much of the rest of the world does (look out for yourself first).
That's an integration program, but not an integration program to become a westerner. As I mentioned, as an Asian, holding, let's say, a Swiss passport through naturalisation does make me a Swiss, by paper, but that doesn't make me a westerner. Being a westerner is more deeply embodied in a socially constructed perspective on how certain group people are or look like. I honestly don't perceive my American-born Asian fellows as westerners, and similarly the Afro-American ones. I was born and raised with perspective that the westerner are white, tall, blue eyes, blonde hair, eat bread or potatoes,.. etc...
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  #396  
Old 10.11.2014, 10:03
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Re: London vs Zurich

Here are Pros and Cons of relocating to London / Zurich .
http://versus.com/en/london-vs-zurich
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  #397  
Old 10.11.2014, 10:04
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Re: London vs Zurich

This thread was fun for a while, and although the current debate has merit, it is far from it's original framework.

So before leaving, I'll just suggest that OfficeGirl asks herself one (almost cliché) question:" Where do you see yourself in 5-10 years?" in regards to lifestyle, family, sport, career, partner, etc, etc. And what compromises/level of reality you'll be prepared to accept to get there.

If you're not prepared to be realistic, Zürich is also very cat-friendly.

Peace to you all.

Litespeed out.
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  #398  
Old 10.11.2014, 10:20
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Re: London vs Zurich

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Being a westerner is more deeply embodied in a socially constructed perspective on how certain group people are or look like. I honestly don't perceive my American-born Asian fellows as westerners, and similarly the Afro-American ones. I was born and raised with perspective that the westerner are white, tall, blue eyes, blonde hair, eat bread or potatoes,.. etc...
I'm an American, and I can tell you that Americans are not identified by their genetic inheritance. There are plenty of Americans who are black, spanish, asian, etc.; who are more patriotically American then some whites. The only ones that really identify the nationality with a race are the likes of KKK and the Aryan Nation.

I'm now also Swiss. Damn, I have a lot of nationalities. I can tell you that as a citizen, I feel and am responsible for the well-being of Switzerland. There are no half-citizenships in Switzerland. Anyone who tells you there is a difference in rights between a original Swiss and a "paper" Swiss is peddling racist hogwash that won't hold, particularly if you don't accept it. It doesn't mean I have to drop all my other cultural identities, and only take on the Swiss. It also does not mean I can't adapt the parts of Swiss culture I find beneficial either. Nationality, culture, ethnicity, down to individual choices; none of it mutually inclusive.
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Old 10.11.2014, 11:37
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Re: London vs Zurich

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...Litespeed out.
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Old 10.11.2014, 11:54
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Re: London vs Zurich

Well unless @officegirl has come to a decision one should close this thread . It's become so fukng offtrack!
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Hi all,

I'm currently based in Singapore and am looking to transfer back to Europe. I have the possibility of transferring either to London or Zurich. I am actually a dual Swiss British national and grew up in Geneva so I speak French but my German is quite bad and I have not lived in Switzerland for over 10 years. As I lived in London prior to Singapore, I'm rather tempted by Zurich even though i don't speak the language.

I'm a single 34 year old woman so the dating scene is quite important to me but i'm also looking to settle somewhere permanently.

Any views/advice would be much appreciated!
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