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Old 17.01.2015, 15:01
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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Calling Odile a liar is out of order


It may seem odd to you, but some CEOs are in fact quite human and compassionate, and care about their local communities - understanding the social contract. It's not all about the bottom line and satisfying the short term lusts of shareholders.
CEOs who ignore their fiduciary duty to their shareholders are criminals but I suppose that is quite human. I hope pensioners living on pension funds invested in these companies and having a falling income as a result of voluntary CEO inefficiencies in employing the most local rather than the best staff are going to be OK. But I apologise - I'm sure you know some CEOs. I'm just saying, they're bad CEOs if they aren't looking to maximise long term shareholder value.

Also, from my personal moral compass - it's immoral to look after one community at the expense of another that tries harder and makes more sacrifice just because it happens to be local.
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Old 17.01.2015, 15:26
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

Wearing my cynical hat: Pay cuts in the name of staff solidarity, with the promise that this will avert layoffs, are usually followed a few months later by the same layoffs they were supposed to prevent.

The end of the peg will make many an HR person's job easier, as already planned first quarter firings will be attributed to it, no need to dust off the usual justifications.

Hopefully my cynicism will be proved wrong...
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  #23  
Old 17.01.2015, 15:27
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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Also, from my personal moral compass - it's immoral to look after one community at the expense of another that tries harder and makes more sacrifice just because it happens to be local.
Ouch! Switzerland might then not be the place of your moral dreams. Don't shoot me, I moved to Germany.
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  #24  
Old 17.01.2015, 15:35
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

'Charity begins at home'- not sure where you come from farmadoc- but perhaps this applies to, say, Mexican workers in California too? Or even Indian workers from India, be it here, or in the UK at the moment. One of my family members in the UK is very highly paid to recruit cheap Indian labour to the detriment of UK staff.

But of course employing locals if they turn out to be more expensive overall has its problems too. Balancing all the costs, with dicussions that include local and French politicians and unions, taking into account loss of tax, unemployment benefits, social costs- genuinely looking at ALL aspects in the fairest, but also the most beneficial for the industries, and by know-on effect, everything else- is not going to be easy- as said, very busy weeks and months ahead for all involved. So far, stangely enough, the French frontaliers seem more accepting of a wage cut, than the Swiss who already suffer from (unfair- another debate???) competition from frontaliers accepting lower wages already.

Last edited by Odile; 17.01.2015 at 15:59.
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  #25  
Old 17.01.2015, 15:42
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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Charity begins at home
No judgement, just for me this isn't true. For me, charity begins with the most needy and I'd rather buy avocados from poor Mexicans than from wealthier Italians even though they're further away.

Having said that, I don't believe charity should have anything to do with running a company.
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  #26  
Old 17.01.2015, 15:46
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

Ultimately everyone faces pay cuts as I previously explained / tried to gauge opinion on another thread.

Aftermath of SNB EUR Peg Discontinuation - Would you be happy to take a 20% pay cut?

Slowly people will realise that hold on a second, you can't have a currency go up in value so much and people's pay staying the same. It's counter intuitive.

Mods please merge threads before you will have a gazillion threads discussing the same thing.
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Old 17.01.2015, 15:48
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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Ultimately everyone faces pay cuts
Unless, as per this thread, an arbitrary portion of the workforce shoulders all the pay cuts to protect Swiss residents or even Swiss nationals.
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Old 17.01.2015, 16:04
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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Unless, as per this thread, an arbitrary portion of the workforce shoulders all the pay cuts to protect Swiss residents or even Swiss nationals.
This will lead only to more expensive parties being laid off, and even if this will not be the case in some rural communes, it will be in bigger companies that matter.
Then some can say 'switzerland will impose new rules against cheap work force', maybe they will but that will be one a nail to the coffin really.

The real only way is to drop salaries, but only way this will succeed is if prices will go down in pair with this really, otherwise it will lead to problems.

@Odile: Approach which you suggest is also harmful, let's say company A (that is driven by CEO friend of yours) makes product X at price of 20CHF, then you have company B that doesn't have so 'local minded' CEO, this company also makes product X but due to lower cost of salaries they make it at the price of 15 CHF... Guess which company will survive on the market? Sure, you can say 'people will buy local' but... not all will, and this is only valid for mini companies / self employed poeple, big companies / brands / companies exporting from Switzerland are not local to anybody...
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  #29  
Old 17.01.2015, 16:14
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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CEOs who ignore their fiduciary duty to their shareholders are criminals ...
CEOs have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders; if they fail to uphold that duty they may be liable to legal action. Whether such failure is criminal or merely due to civil sanctions, or any sanctions at all depends on the country.

CEOs are obliged to act according to what they feel are in the best interests of the owners of the company. If a CEO, being a compassionate soul, feels that maintaining the social contract is in the best interests of the owners of the company, then there is no failure. Indeed, if he fails to take into account the human cost of his decisions, because he is a cold hearted bastard and can only see the bottom line and, for example, ignores political consequences, for examples, then he may be guilty of ignoring his fiduciary duty.
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  #30  
Old 17.01.2015, 16:26
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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Why a company should pay someone less because they live in France, is beyond me.
Simples: the effective EUR buying power has gone up 20%, so you can cut wages to take away, say 15% of that and people will still be better off before, so are more likely to accept it.

Of course, if things revert back to normal, then it is tough for them and you managed to save costs.
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  #31  
Old 17.01.2015, 17:34
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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Simples: the effective EUR buying power has gone up 20%,
So? That's due to someone's decision to live in France. Should people be interviewed to see if they've reduced their expenditure at all even if they live in Switzerland?

"Ah, I see you've moved into a one-bedroom apartment whereas before you lived in a 2-bedroom place in a more expensive part of town. We're going to dock your salary by the 1000Fr/month that you're saving on rent".
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  #32  
Old 17.01.2015, 17:58
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

I get the impression that basic tenants of a free market economy as it relates to labor availability absolutely terrifies some on this thread.
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  #33  
Old 17.01.2015, 18:13
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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I get the impression that basic tenants of a free market economy as it relates to labor availability absolutely terrifies some on this thread.
tenets

Anyway, if the salaries are confidential, there's nothing to stop a boss calling in a frontalier and saying

"I've got to make cuts, because of the strong Franc affecting our exports. You've got two options 1) Accept a 10% pay cut, which won't materially affect you much, as you'll still have more Euro in your bank account each month than before 15th January. 2) I let you go."

Of course the frontalier should then be assured in writing that should the exchange rate goes the other way, he'll get a pay rise on that basis.
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Old 17.01.2015, 18:31
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

I think there may be a language barrier here !

What Odile so quaintly refers to as a CEO is probably a "patron" of a small to small /medium sized company, probably owned by a family or certainly with a strong family influence.

The boss is hardly a "CEO" is the sense of that most of us think in terms of CEO.

None the less, any boss or CEO who tries to run his business on where you come from or whatever other "social" criteria is going to end up bust. His good intentions will bring the downfall of the company and ALL the jobs, both direct and indirect.

A boss needs to keep the right people for the right jobs according to his projections and i really don't think he's going to worry if you personnaly pay tax one side of the line or the other !
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Old 17.01.2015, 18:36
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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Anyway, if the salaries are confidential, there's nothing to stop a boss calling in a frontalier and saying

"I've got to make cuts, because of the strong Franc affecting our exports. You've got two options 1) Accept a 10% pay cut, which won't materially affect you much, as you'll still have more Euro in your bank account each month than before 15th January. 2) I let you go."

Of course the frontalier should then be assured in writing that should the exchange rate goes the other way, he'll get a pay rise on that basis.
First, even if they officially are people do talk anyway...
and why should they do that only to frontaliers?? that I don't get really, why do you expect someone to be treated differently due to the fact where they live?
Going with that logic, should frontaliers actually be paid MORE than swiss?? They do pay higher income taxes in the end, so their net is lower from same gross salary...
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  #36  
Old 17.01.2015, 18:45
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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First, even if they officially are people do talk anyway...
and why should they do that only to frontaliers?? that I don't get really, why do you expect someone to be treated differently due to the fact where they live?
Going with that logic, should frontaliers actually be paid MORE than swiss?? They do pay higher income taxes in the end, so their net is lower from same gross salary...
And Swiss salaries are far higher than French/German/Italian salaries.....
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Old 17.01.2015, 18:47
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

I don't think it's a good idea personally. I may be a cynic but as Meloncollie says they may make the cuts and lay them off anyway.
If exports suffer the companies just won't need to manufacture as many products so they won't need as many staff. They won't manufacture surplus goods just to keep people employed and they won't keep them if they don't have work for them regardless of how much they've saved by reducing salaries for frontaliers.
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  #38  
Old 17.01.2015, 18:49
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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Going with that logic, should frontaliers actually be paid MORE than swiss?? They do pay higher income taxes in the end, so their net is lower from same gross salary...
Italian frontaliers don't pay higher taxes, they are only taxed in Switzerland.

Tom
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Old 17.01.2015, 19:09
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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I don't think it's a good idea personally. I may be a cynic but as Meloncollie says they may make the cuts and lay them off anyway.
If exports suffer the companies just won't need to manufacture as many products so they won't need as many staff. They won't manufacture surplus goods just to keep people employed and they won't keep them if they don't have work for them regardless of how much they've saved by reducing salaries for frontaliers.
I'm afraid it's not so simple, usually manufacturing is more than just employees, it's machines, buildings (factories) etc. If company makes 1000 items to export / week and suddenly they will only be able to export 200, they can fire some people but they will not be able to quickly (if at all) scale down their infrastructure for which they already paid (unlikely) or they are still paying, this way the whole company might go down. I think the way to go (or to try as it's easy to say, and not easy at all to do), rather than cutting production they should focus at lowering it's cost, one (but obviously not only) way to do it is to reduce salaries for all employees (regardless where they live).


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Italian frontaliers don't pay higher taxes, they are only taxed in Switzerland.

Tom
Really? I thought you are taxed in country of residence... I checked this for Germany only though, I admit.
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Old 17.01.2015, 19:19
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Re: Frontaliers pay ?

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So? That's due to someone's decision to live in France. Should people be interviewed to see if they've reduced their expenditure at all even if they live in Switzerland?

"Ah, I see you've moved into a one-bedroom apartment whereas before you lived in a 2-bedroom place in a more expensive part of town. We're going to dock your salary by the 1000Fr/month that you're saving on rent".
well if someone's been gifted a deduction on their current flat, then arguably it would also work, but i don't think that really happens often in practice
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