Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 19.01.2015, 13:03
nigelr's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 1,428
Groaned at 109 Times in 53 Posts
Thanked 1,488 Times in 719 Posts
nigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

I have personal experience of forex losses with "dodgy" forex trading platforms/companies. They are out to do you at every opportunity.

For the OP, if the debt is to a real bank and not a forex broker (fxcm, alpari, etc) then talk to them and see what can be done. If the debt is with a forex dealer then just wait and see, do nothing for a day or two, get on the forex forums and see what you can find out.

Don't panic, get a lawyer.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank nigelr for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 19.01.2015, 13:12
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bern
Posts: 70
Groaned at 42 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 191 Times in 82 Posts
farmadoc has earned some respectfarmadoc has earned some respect
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
I have personal experience of forex losses with "dodgy" forex trading platforms/companies. They are out to do you at every opportunity.

For the OP, if the debt is to a real bank and not a forex broker (fxcm, alpari, etc) then talk to them and see what can be done. If the debt is with a forex dealer then just wait and see, do nothing for a day or two, get on the forex forums and see what you can find out.

Don't panic, get a lawyer.

Seconded. If its not a bank, run and hide. Hopefully they'll go bust
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 19.01.2015, 13:44
Fish Paste's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: North
Posts: 362
Groaned at 7 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 422 Times in 201 Posts
Fish Paste has earned the respect of manyFish Paste has earned the respect of manyFish Paste has earned the respect of many
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
Seconded. If its not a bank, run and hide. Hopefully they'll go bust
Surely then the liquidators will come after you?
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Fish Paste for this useful post:
  #64  
Old 19.01.2015, 19:00
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bern
Posts: 70
Groaned at 42 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 191 Times in 82 Posts
farmadoc has earned some respectfarmadoc has earned some respect
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
Surely then the liquidators will come after you?
At some point. Then negotiate with them for 50rp on the CHF for debt which they bought at 30rp.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 19.01.2015, 19:13
Fish Paste's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: North
Posts: 362
Groaned at 7 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 422 Times in 201 Posts
Fish Paste has earned the respect of manyFish Paste has earned the respect of manyFish Paste has earned the respect of many
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
At some point. Then negotiate with them for 50rp on the CHF for debt which they bought at 30rp.
Being pedantic, liquidators don't buy the debt, hedge funds/vulture funds do amongst others.
Liquidators are appointed by the courts.

I'm not sure either are easy to deal with as they both want best possible returns, upto and including bankrupting the debtor, who they certainly don't care about.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Fish Paste for this useful post:
  #66  
Old 19.01.2015, 19:16
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bern
Posts: 70
Groaned at 42 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 191 Times in 82 Posts
farmadoc has earned some respectfarmadoc has earned some respect
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
Being pedantic, liquidators don't buy the debt, hedge funds/vulture funds do amongst others.
Liquidators are appointed by the courts.
I think a lot of the time liquidators will sell the debt though, they won't go after thousands of small debtors individually.

Quote:
View Post
I'm not sure either are easy to deal with as they both want best possible returns, upto and including bankrupting the debtor, who they certainly don't care about.
Bankrupting the debtor is the worst possible scenario for them. They want as much money back as possible. They are always open to negotiation.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank farmadoc for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 19.01.2015, 20:38
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Geneva
Posts: 199
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 68 Times in 41 Posts
TuxedoPants has earned some respectTuxedoPants has earned some respect
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

I'm really grateful for all your advice & input. I forgot to mention that I went back to studying so I have not had any income lately. This is what makes paying it off seem impossible and bankruptcy the only option. I put what I had saved while working into an option which was supposed to be virtually risk free. I'm still trying to process what has happened/ is happening
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank TuxedoPants for this useful post:
  #68  
Old 19.01.2015, 21:21
Slaphead's Avatar
Moderato espressivo
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,144
Groaned at 40 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 8,992 Times in 2,759 Posts
Slaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
I'm really grateful for all your advice & input. I forgot to mention that I went back to studying so I have not had any income lately. This is what makes paying it off seem impossible and bankruptcy the only option. I put what I had saved while working into an option which was supposed to be virtually risk free. I'm still trying to process what has happened/ is happening
This situation has really caught out a hell of a lot of people - forex brokers are dropping like flies, as unfortunately are their clients.

On the surface of it forex trading with the swissie, up until now, was a no lose situation with the swissie having a floor thanks to the SNB. You open your position at or very near the 1.2 to the euro and then the only way was up. Any losses would be covered by the SNB effectively devaluing the currency back to 1.2. That is until last Thursday where they pulled the plug and an unprecedented rise in the swissie occurred .

I really feel for you, and I believe that you got into this as a result of not having been fully informed of the risks of leveraged investments - I didn't until today when I read this thread, or you were totally miss sold.

I know it's personal but it might help people give you a course of action if they have an idea of how much you're in for. Obviously this is something that you may not be willing to reveal on an open forum, which is totally understandable.

In any event I hope you can resolve the situation with minimal pain to yourself.
__________________
...allegedly.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Slaphead for this useful post:
  #69  
Old 19.01.2015, 21:26
litespeed's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dietikon ZH
Posts: 1,854
Groaned at 15 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,398 Times in 730 Posts
litespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
I put what I had saved while working into an option which was supposed to be virtually risk free.
If "virtually risk free" is an investment product where you can suddenly become in debt to 4x your capital, I don't even want to know what defines a "risky" investment.
Reply With Quote
The following 12 users would like to thank litespeed for this useful post:
  #70  
Old 19.01.2015, 21:43
Verbier's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lully VD
Posts: 3,459
Groaned at 11 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 3,257 Times in 1,715 Posts
Verbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

A number of people have suggested that the OP contact a lawyer quickly to determine what the options might be.

As we all know, a lawyer (without legal insurance) will be an expensive endeavour. And, I might add that in my experience Swiss lawyers do not seem to be the most aggressive about defending their clients.

Another option that might be less expensive and possibly more adapted the the needs of the OP would be a "business agent". In our end of the country they are called "Agent d'affaires". I am not sure what they are called in German (my Google translate gave me the same as in English). These are people who have studied law but do not plead in front of a judge. They tend to much more business oriented and have a bigger focus on complex negotiations rather than looking at what the Federal court has said this week.

It might be worth looking in this direction and specifically if s/he has experience in negotiating repayments/bankruptcies. It might make the difference in staying solvent or not.
__________________
Do or do not, there is no try(ing). Yoda
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Verbier for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 19.01.2015, 22:03
Hoppy's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Oakland US
Posts: 409
Groaned at 20 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 320 Times in 201 Posts
Hoppy has an excellent reputationHoppy has an excellent reputationHoppy has an excellent reputationHoppy has an excellent reputation
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

I just feel sorry for the OP, so wondered if the link below would be any good (Swiss Banking Ombudsman); concerning fair trading. I know NOTHING, NADA about finances, so would appreciate it if more knowledgeable members in the finance industry could let the OP if it is OK or a definite "No-no" to follow the link.

http://www.swissbanking.org/en/akteure.htm
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 19.01.2015, 22:22
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: USTER
Posts: 123
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts
surfpowder has earned some respectsurfpowder has earned some respect
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

That sucks buddy, but to be honest, if you were that highly leveraged that you lost 4 times the money on a ~20% shift on CHF to EUR or USD I assume you accept that risk??
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 19.01.2015, 22:45
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Geneva
Posts: 52
Groaned at 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 56 Times in 27 Posts
Batcow is considered knowledgeableBatcow is considered knowledgeableBatcow is considered knowledgeable
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

If you have to go insolvent can you claim domicile in California on the basis that you're only in Switzerland temporarily, and go bankrupt there instead of here? It might mean having to leave CH, but how much is a 'Huge' amount? You may get better protection than in Switzerland.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 19.01.2015, 23:34
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London/vaud
Posts: 32
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Stevehaley has no particular reputation at present
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
If "virtually risk free" is an investment product where you can suddenly become in debt to 4x your capital, I don't even want to know what defines a "risky" investment.
I get really mad when investment advisers/companies/banks say "virtually risk free". The only thing that is risk free is a deposit account that is underwritten in your own currency.
I am old enough to have seen tears in the last three market crashes from people who unknowingly invested in exotic investments that were designed to always outperform the market by using clever leveraged strategies. The problem is that they always have a floor beneath which the losses mount exponentially.

The key thing to always ask in these situations and get recorded is what is my maximum downside potential. And lastly never get yourself labeled as a market professional without understanding all the ramifications.

If this was said to the OP and it wasn't clearly explained to him that he could lose multiples of his stake/investment then my advice would be to get advice ASAP because in the uk that would normally be enough to get you not only off the hook for your loses but also get your money back. Not sure what the rules are here...
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 19.01.2015, 23:56
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,724
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,034 Times in 6,259 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
ooops- my dad was born 1912 so ... corrected

Ahhh well- will be paying a lot less tax next year, so every cloud ... and all that. Yep- will hold off a bit- very lucky we don't have to cash in.
I doubt it will reduce his tax liabilities, there is no CGT so losses are not deductible. Wealth tax being virtually non existent assuming you claim the 0.3% expense for looking after your capital. (First 6 million or there about in ZH)
Quote:
View Post
Because it seems from the OP that he lost more than he could afford.

OP, so sorry for the predicament you are in, you can only talk to the bank, and maybe also to a good lawyer. 300 CHF or so may be money well spent here. Good luck.
FX trading is almost certainly undertaken without advise on a self execution basis.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 19.01.2015, 23:59
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,355
Groaned at 368 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 22,366 Times in 10,062 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

LOL, do you ever read posts/threads?

We will be paying less tax, as our income (uk pensions) will be worth much less in CHF.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #77  
Old 20.01.2015, 07:33
dino's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,663
Groaned at 35 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 1,279 Times in 628 Posts
dino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
That sucks buddy, but to be honest, if you were that highly leveraged that you lost 4 times the money on a ~20% shift on CHF to EUR or USD I assume you accept that risk??
he wasn't 'that highly leveraged'.
20% shift x 20 leverage = 400% loss or gain.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank dino for this useful post:
  #78  
Old 20.01.2015, 09:14
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,724
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,034 Times in 6,259 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
LOL, do you ever read posts/threads?

We will be paying less tax, as our income (uk pensions) will be worth much less in CHF.
It was the hyphen that threw me, I know you believe your written English is better than most English, it's clearly not mother tong & that may surprise you.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #79  
Old 20.01.2015, 09:46
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 9,793
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 17,388 Times in 6,651 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Leveraged options are high risk investments - so you could argue you were poorly advised. Here is why:

Lets say you have 12,000chf to invest and buy something for 1.2 chf expecting it to move to 1.3chf within a year. It does and in a year you sell for 13,000chf - making 1,000chf

Instead of buying it you buy an option for 0.05chf to buy it for 1.25chf in 1 year. At the end of the year it is 1.3chf (as above) you then buy at 1.25chf (300,000chf) and then send at 1.3chf (312,000chf) - making 12,000chf

You can then repeat the above but leverage your "asset" (the options) - and say you get 5x that - so 60,000chf. You can then buy at 1.25chf (1.5m chf) and sell for (1.56m chf) making 60,000chf

It all sounds rather good doesn't it!

But what happens if the value drops to 1chf (as it effectively did) (EDITTED as I have re-read it - and forgot that he could just walk away from the option)

In 1) - you sell (10,000), pay debts of zero), and walk away with 10,000chf. (A loss of 2,000chf)
In 2) - you have lost all the 12,000chf
In 3) - you have lost the 12,000chf - and now also owe 48,000chf for the loan.

Doing the above with your own money without any sort of hedging is very brave
__________________
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet" Abraham Lincoln

Last edited by dodgyken; 20.01.2015 at 11:30.
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank dodgyken for this useful post:
  #80  
Old 20.01.2015, 10:24
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bern
Posts: 70
Groaned at 42 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 191 Times in 82 Posts
farmadoc has earned some respectfarmadoc has earned some respect
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
You open your position at or very near the 1.2 to the euro and then the only way was up. Any losses would be covered by the SNB effectively devaluing the currency back to 1.2.
It's exactly this that gave the clue that it couldn't last. All these trading wins were paid for by the SNB - all these losses and gains since the unpegging. Holding a currency like this is hugely expensive and could never continue indefinitely.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank farmadoc for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Forex trading anyone? Fesken1 Finance/banking/taxation 23 14.04.2014 18:46
PostFinance update June 2012 ( GeoBlocking & real time Forex Trading ) jrspet Finance/banking/taxation 2 20.06.2012 00:55
UBS revises rogue trading loss upwards The Local Swiss news via The Local 2 19.09.2011 13:58


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:43.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0