Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #141  
Old 21.01.2015, 11:11
bigblue2's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glarus
Posts: 6,129
Groaned at 309 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 9,468 Times in 3,852 Posts
bigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

LOL what uni did you go to?? 50k for a year studying, jesus
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 21.01.2015, 11:13
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,614
Groaned at 456 Times in 291 Posts
Thanked 2,936 Times in 1,469 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
How is that of any help? The damage has been done already.



OP quit his job and is/was living on his savings while studying. That allows the assumption that this is intended to last at least one year, probably longer.

Which means he had at least 50k savings (probably more as the school/uni may well take multiple yaers). And he says he's quadruple that in the red now so a likely no-less-than is 200k in the red, with a fair chance of it being 500k or even more.

How is that not enough info?
Because your assumptions, although possibly true, are just assumptions and extrapolations.

Like I mentioned, it's very possible to have a different perspective, and the total number can greatly variate.

So instead of firing advice based on assumption, I'd prefer know the facts.

Which might have been what caused the OP 's troubles: assuming that he's make profit while the facts (ex: the consequences of XXX loss) were more important.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank CorsebouTheReturn for this useful post:
  #143  
Old 21.01.2015, 11:14
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,614
Groaned at 456 Times in 291 Posts
Thanked 2,936 Times in 1,469 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
LOL what uni did you go to?? 50k for a year studying, jesus
He's Swiss, how can you expect him to finish your studies without a Rolex?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank CorsebouTheReturn for this useful post:
  #144  
Old 21.01.2015, 11:25
California Dreamer's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 929
Groaned at 56 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 878 Times in 433 Posts
California Dreamer has an excellent reputationCalifornia Dreamer has an excellent reputationCalifornia Dreamer has an excellent reputationCalifornia Dreamer has an excellent reputation
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
You do realize that a stop loss would either not have triggered in a scenario like this, or it would have executed more or less at the bottom, right? They do not guarantee both execution and the price level, only one of those. Relying on stop losses is like relying on a condom made of paper. Sure, it might offer superficial protection, but get just a bit wild and you are in a world of hurt.

Edit: dammit was I trolled again?
A stop loss in another pair was triggered and ALL of my SL's have been executed even in the most turbulent times over the last 6 years. Never a problem. Maybe during a dramatic move like the other day I would lose a point or two due to volatility but never to have been triggered beyond a reasonable amount of the limits I have set is something I have never experienced. But if your using a broker from the back alleys of Lagos then your mileage will most likely vary.
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 21.01.2015, 11:30
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,716
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,029 Times in 6,254 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
A stop loss in another pair was triggered and ALL of my SL's have been executed even in the most turbulent times over the last 6 years. Never a problem. Maybe during a dramatic move like the other day I would lose a point or two due to volatility but to never be triggered beyond a reasonable amount of the limits I have set is something I have never experienced. But if your using a broker from the back alleys of Lagos then your mileage will most likely vary.
Did you have an CHF currency stop loss orders trigger last week? There has been very little market volatility in the 40% range, thats when the shit hits the fan.

Prices don't move in a linear fashion is the problem, if you had a stop limit order at 1.18 it would never had triggered, a stop loss at 1.18 might have triggered at 0.89. The more orders trying to execute the more the price falls.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #146  
Old 21.01.2015, 11:55
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,967
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,243 Times in 5,007 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
LOL what uni did you go to?? 50k for a year studying, jesus
Fees + living expenses. If you were already working, you'd want to maintain something like your previous standard of living - it's not like being an undergraduate who's just left home, living in a flat-share.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #147  
Old 21.01.2015, 11:56
xynth's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 753
Groaned at 37 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,681 Times in 503 Posts
xynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
A stop loss in another pair was triggered and ALL of my SL's have been executed even in the most turbulent times over the last 6 years. Never a problem. Maybe during a dramatic move like the other day I would lose a point or two due to volatility but never to have been triggered beyond a reasonable amount of the limits I have set is something I have never experienced. But if your using a broker from the back alleys of Lagos then your mileage will most likely vary.
*Sigh*

If you bothered to read the thread, I wrote already, but let me just repeat myself:

Outside of special exchange rules*, stop orders either guarantee price, or execution. Not both. As fatmanfilms wrote, the price is not a continuous function. It is not differentiable. It is quantized. It moves in jumps. This is the effect of the way order books work. The reputation of your broker is irrelevant to the fact that no broker or exchange offers fully guaranteed stop losses for most instruments (or any at all). When trading spot FX, you trade with your broker's desk, but even if you trade exchange traded instruments, stop orders work exactly the same way.

Let's imagine you are trading EURCHF, your stop is at 1.18. One second, EURCHF is at 1.20, the news hits the market, and liquidity disappears at 1.20 and reappears without any intermediate steps at 1.10. If you get lucky, your stop will become active at that point. If you had a stop limit order with the limit at 1.17, it is now beyond the acceptable limit and it does not execute at all. If you had a simple stop order, it now turns into a market order and will execute at 1.10 at best. Probably much lower.

This is how order book execution works. It is not some kind of hypothetical behavior. Orders will disappear at 1.2 as algos pull them the milisecond the news is out and, and they will reappear at lower levels in jumps, not smoothly.

Just because you didn't have a stop massively failing on you in the last 6 years it doesn't mean that they are some sort of reliable wipeout protection. I want a wipeout protection to be reliable against tail events like this. Their mechanism does not provide this reliability, ergo I rather not rely on them at all.

* Now, even outside of abnormal market volatility that may cause stop losses to misbehave, if you read the execution rules of your broker and/or exchange, you'll note that they reserve the right to suspend the execution of stop orders. Most commonly to avoid cascading selling, but really, they are free to do it at any time.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank xynth for this useful post:
  #148  
Old 21.01.2015, 12:04
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bern
Posts: 70
Groaned at 42 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 191 Times in 82 Posts
farmadoc has earned some respectfarmadoc has earned some respect
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
Prices don't move in a linear fashion

To make this a little simpler - every point on the price curve is made up of a buyer and a seller. They can meet at any arbitrary point, it doesn't have to be anywhere near the previous price, it just usually is because market expectation is normally quite close to what actually happens. If your house is bought for 200k and prices in your area typically rise about 5% per year, then after a year you'll sell your house right on the curve at 210k. However if a sewage treatment plant gets built by surprise next door then your house is only worth 100k and that happens over night. Even if you had a stop loss (pre-set sell order) on at 180k it won't be executed because there were only ever buyers willing to pay 210k and 100k.
Reply With Quote
The following 13 users would like to thank farmadoc for this useful post:
  #149  
Old 21.01.2015, 12:09
California Dreamer's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 929
Groaned at 56 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 878 Times in 433 Posts
California Dreamer has an excellent reputationCalifornia Dreamer has an excellent reputationCalifornia Dreamer has an excellent reputationCalifornia Dreamer has an excellent reputation
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
Did you have an CHF currency stop loss orders trigger last week? There has been very little market volatility in the 40% range, thats when the shit hits the fan.

Prices don't move in a linear fashion is the problem, if you had a stop limit order at 1.18 it would never had triggered, a stop loss at 1.18 might have triggered at 0.89. The more orders trying to execute the more the price falls.
ATM I am long on the dollar. My USD/CHF trialling stop was triggered (while still in profit) my EUR/USD trialling stops where riggered on the rebound, with a lot more profit. I keep my eggs in one basket most of the time. I trade EUR/USD 90% of the time because the volatility matches my risk management the best plus I've watched that pair so long I know all of its dirty little secrets. The other 10% I trade USD/CHF only cause it mimics EURUSD except for the other day. Two or three times a year I get wild hair up my a$$ and put on a trade for AUS/USD but that's more of an interest earning trade. I trade from my IPad. I don't need 8 monitors with 56 different charts. One pair, one time frame, works for me.

Last edited by California Dreamer; 21.01.2015 at 12:25.
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 21.01.2015, 12:21
California Dreamer's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 929
Groaned at 56 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 878 Times in 433 Posts
California Dreamer has an excellent reputationCalifornia Dreamer has an excellent reputationCalifornia Dreamer has an excellent reputationCalifornia Dreamer has an excellent reputation
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
*Sigh*

If you bothered to read the thread, I wrote already, but let me just repeat myself:

Outside of special exchange rules*, stop orders either guarantee price, or execution. Not both. As fatmanfilms wrote, the price is not a continuous function. It is not differentiable. It is quantized. It moves in jumps. This is the effect of the way order books work. The reputation of your broker is irrelevant to the fact that no broker or exchange offers fully guaranteed stop losses for most instruments (or any at all). When trading spot FX, you trade with your broker's desk, but even if you trade exchange traded instruments, stop orders work exactly the same way.

Let's imagine you are trading EURCHF, your stop is at 1.18. One second, EURCHF is at 1.20, the news hits the market, and liquidity disappears at 1.20 and reappears without any intermediate steps at 1.10. If you get lucky, your stop will become active at that point. If you had a stop limit order with the limit at 1.17, it is now beyond the acceptable limit and it does not execute at all. If you had a simple stop order, it now turns into a market order and will execute at 1.10 at best. Probably much lower.

This is how order book execution works. It is not some kind of hypothetical behavior. Orders will disappear at 1.2 as algos pull them the milisecond the news is out and, and they will reappear at lower levels in jumps, not smoothly.

Just because you didn't have a stop massively failing on you in the last 6 years it doesn't mean that they are some sort of reliable wipeout protection. I want a wipeout protection to be reliable against tail events like this. Their mechanism does not provide this reliability, ergo I rather not rely on them at all.

* Now, even outside of abnormal market volatility that may cause stop losses to misbehave, if you read the execution rules of your broker and/or exchange, you'll note that they reserve the right to suspend the execution of stop orders. Most commonly to avoid cascading selling, but really, they are free to do it at any time.

I completely agree with you and understand fully the function of stop and trialling losses, although I prefer the term trialling profit taker,lol. I only use TS. Reliable wipe out protection can only be had through risk management. Even if my USD/CHF stop was not triggered until the very end of the plunge it still wouldn't be enough for me to break a sweat. I was pyramided into the EUR/USD position so I am a bit disappointed that all stops were triggered. It took me months to get to that level. Oh well, now I don't have to trade for several months, but I expect dollar strength to continue so it looks like I'll start scaling back in. Oh bummer.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank California Dreamer for this useful post:
  #151  
Old 21.01.2015, 12:31
xynth's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 753
Groaned at 37 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,681 Times in 503 Posts
xynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
I completely agree with you and understand fully the function of stop and trialling losses, although I prefer the term trialling profit taker,lol. I only use TS. Reliable wipe out protection can only be had through risk management. Even if my USD/CHF stop was not triggered until the very end of the plunge it still wouldn't be enough for me to break a sweat. I was pyramided into the EUR/USD position so I am a bit disappointed that all stops were triggered. It took me months to get to that level. Oh well, now I don't have to trade for several months, but I expect dollar strength to continue so it looks like I'll start scaling back in. Oh bummer.
Fair enough - it's just that your previous post suggested that they should be used as a fool proof protection and whoever doesn't use them is a muppet

IMO it makes sense to use them as you describe here.
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old 21.01.2015, 12:45
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,472
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,325 Times in 5,676 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
He lost his entire lifes savings plus more. He currently does not have and any income (stundent) to be able to see his way clear to pay any of the negative balance back. What does the actuall loss amount really matter against that kind of information? How would you feel if you lost all your lifes savings and ended up in a big black pit of debt on top of it all?
its not good, but very much also depends on your stage in life. a young student could probably just declare bankruptcy and shrug it off. a pension at 65 would be screwed.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #153  
Old 21.01.2015, 17:39
GenevaSculler's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,167
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 923 Times in 480 Posts
GenevaSculler has a reputation beyond reputeGenevaSculler has a reputation beyond reputeGenevaSculler has a reputation beyond reputeGenevaSculler has a reputation beyond reputeGenevaSculler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

To the OP - were you trading through Dukascopy?

http://www.dukascopy.com/

If so today might be your lucky day - they are cancelling all negative balances and not chasing customers for them.

If not, perhaps you can use this example when talking to your broker.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank GenevaSculler for this useful post:
  #154  
Old 21.01.2015, 22:22
Swissish's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Frequent Flier
Posts: 413
Groaned at 27 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 495 Times in 219 Posts
Swissish is considered knowledgeableSwissish is considered knowledgeableSwissish is considered knowledgeable
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
its not good, but very much also depends on your stage in life. a young student could probably just declare bankruptcy and shrug it off. a pension at 65 would be screwed.
Yes yes very true no doubt, but still stings nonetheless. I sure hope for his sake he's was trading through Dukoscapy.
Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old 21.01.2015, 22:41
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Geneva
Posts: 46
Groaned at 8 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 16 Times in 9 Posts
JJJJJ has annoyed a few people around hereJJJJJ has annoyed a few people around here
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Start transferin / hiding remaining assets to a safe place asap
Reply With Quote
This user groans at JJJJJ for this post:
  #156  
Old 21.01.2015, 22:56
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bern
Posts: 70
Groaned at 42 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 191 Times in 82 Posts
farmadoc has earned some respectfarmadoc has earned some respect
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
Start transferin / hiding remaining assets to a safe place asap
No, please don't do this. If you get found out:

1. You'll be in the worst of both worlds - you'll still have to dispose of your assets, but you won't be able to discharge your debts.
2. It's a crime and you'll go to prison http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/311_0/a163.html
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank farmadoc for this useful post:
  #157  
Old 23.01.2015, 04:11
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 224
Groaned at 71 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 137 Times in 75 Posts
profetas is considered unworthyprofetas is considered unworthyprofetas is considered unworthyprofetas is considered unworthy
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Broker should liquidate the account when it goes on negative. Just because it went too fast for them to liquidate your account might not be your fault. check the liquidation rules.
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 23.01.2015, 22:27
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Basel
Posts: 880
Groaned at 19 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 561 Times in 347 Posts
Meerkat33 is considered knowledgeableMeerkat33 is considered knowledgeableMeerkat33 is considered knowledgeable
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

http://www.tio.ch/News/Affari/Borse-...-in-difficolta
says the bank is in contact with its clients to sort out the situation
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Meerkat33 for this useful post:
  #159  
Old 25.01.2015, 00:02
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 3,020
Groaned at 99 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 3,744 Times in 1,935 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
LOL what uni did you go to?? 50k for a year studying, jesus
OP quit his job so he needs to live on his savings. Including tuition 4K per month is, imo, the low end of the range after having entered the work force and being used to a regular income that's high enough to build the savings OP had planned to be living on now (though one can certainly live on less, even in CH, but scaling down is very very very difficult).

Quote:
View Post
Because your assumptions, although possibly true, are just assumptions and extrapolations.

Like I mentioned, it's very possible to have a different perspective, and the total number can greatly variate.

So instead of firing advice based on assumption, I'd prefer know the facts.

Which might have been what caused the OP 's troubles: assuming that he's make profit while the facts (ex: the consequences of XXX loss) were more important.
If you (or somebody else) indeed were able to advise it would not be necessary to know the actual damage - simply fire away and mention the damage range your advice applies to.

The only reason to require the actual amount be posted is to satisfy the audience's curiosity.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #160  
Old 25.01.2015, 00:13
Troublawesome's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Zug
Posts: 721
Groaned at 124 Times in 75 Posts
Thanked 583 Times in 271 Posts
Troublawesome is considered unworthyTroublawesome is considered unworthyTroublawesome is considered unworthyTroublawesome is considered unworthy
Re: In Need of Advice (Huge forex trading loss)

Quote:
View Post
A stop loss in another pair was triggered and ALL of my SL's have been executed even in the most turbulent times over the last 6 years. Never a problem. Maybe during a dramatic move like the other day I would lose a point or two due to volatility but never to have been triggered beyond a reasonable amount of the limits I have set is something I have never experienced. But if your using a broker from the back alleys of Lagos then your mileage will most likely vary.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Forex trading anyone? Fesken1 Finance/banking/taxation 23 14.04.2014 18:46
PostFinance update June 2012 ( GeoBlocking & real time Forex Trading ) jrspet Finance/banking/taxation 2 20.06.2012 00:55
UBS revises rogue trading loss upwards The Local Swiss news via The Local 2 19.09.2011 13:58


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0