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  #41  
Old 27.02.2015, 17:16
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

Oh no, foreigners living abroad come over and steal our jobs!

Oh no, Swiss commute from abroad and don't buy local!

Oh no, people keep moving to our towns and pushing property prices up!

Oh no, companies can't get enough staff and are outsourcing!

Oh no, I can't get a job because people don't visit our towns and support our businesses!

Oh no, I'm crap at what I do and can't compete! Oh shit. Err, I mean one of the above.
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  #42  
Old 27.02.2015, 17:19
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

Stand on a corner and count people walking by for only 18CHF an hour? Never!
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Old 27.02.2015, 18:23
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

" They are paying their taxes into the Swiss system, but they're not consuming any of the benefits."
They certainly complain if the snow ploughs haven't gone round quick or often enough so they can get to work, so I would think that using the road system woudl be considered consuming a benefit.
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  #44  
Old 27.02.2015, 18:33
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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I was writing about screwing economically. Taking away cash from country without giving it back for expensive purchases and services.
Even my french colleagues / frontaliers admit this, not caring about some swiss attitude openly. From cashflow point of view, I don't blame them. Most are accepting negative sentiment as part of the deal, outweighted by cash. Very few people I know have other motivation than money to live in french voisine.
The main motivation to live in France voisine for virtually all people I know is that they wanted to have a place they could call their own once they started a family with kids and that there is nothing available in Geneva unless you are ultra-rich.
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  #45  
Old 27.02.2015, 18:42
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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Oh no, foreigners living abroad come over and steal our jobs!

Oh no, Swiss commute from abroad and don't buy local!

Oh no, people keep moving to our towns and pushing property prices up!

Oh no, companies can't get enough staff and are outsourcing!

Oh no, I can't get a job because people don't visit our towns and support our businesses!

Oh no, I'm crap at what I do and can't compete! Oh shit. Err, I mean one of the above.
It's not that easy.


Of course foreigners, often blinded by the allmighty frank, think they can work for lower wages than the Swiss, and sometimes this is also true, especially if the employer is a foreigner (attracted by a low taxcut), too.


Sure that frontaliers are only one group of many stakeholders who have their fingers in the pot (i.e. who massively profit from the actual situation), others are a scrooge Swiss foederalism, that prefers not to invest in locals but rather to enhance foreign educated manpower.


Traffic issues are only one side of many bad things that foreigners (and yes, there are also many Swiss frontaliers or commuters, many of them illegal) brought into Switzerland, i.e. at least to those who cannot afford to bypass negative side effects (like e.g. high real-estate prices and crappy infrastructure).
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Old 27.02.2015, 19:22
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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insufficient affordable housing
Just build more? Is Switzerland running out of land or what?
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  #47  
Old 27.02.2015, 20:15
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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Who'd serve our coffee?

some self-service machines


instructions per display in German, Italian, Albanian and Turkish
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Old 27.02.2015, 20:26
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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Just build more? Is Switzerland running out of land or what?
... or what!
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  #49  
Old 27.02.2015, 20:29
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

Italian frontaliers are different.

First, very few are non-Italian, and most of those are dual Italian-Swiss.

Also, most work for Italian companies that moved here, workforce and all.

And they clog the roads.

Hell, I even know Italian frontaliers, who've been doing it for decades, complaining about the massive influx over the past decade!

Tom
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Old 27.02.2015, 20:35
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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It's not that easy.


Of course foreigners, often blinded by the allmighty frank, think they can work for lower wages than the Swiss, and sometimes this is also true, especially if the employer is a foreigner (attracted by a low taxcut), too.


Sure that frontaliers are only one group of many stakeholders who have their fingers in the pot (i.e. who massively profit from the actual situation), others are a scrooge Swiss foederalism, that prefers not to invest in locals but rather to enhance foreign educated manpower.


Traffic issues are only one side of many bad things that foreigners (and yes, there are also many Swiss frontaliers or commuters, many of them illegal) brought into Switzerland, i.e. at least to those who cannot afford to bypass negative side effects (like e.g. high real-estate prices and crappy infrastructure).

But a lot is invested locally into the Professional education and into schools exactly by Cantons liike Geneva and Vaud and Basel and Zürich


The foreigners have to fill the gap left open by the retiring baby-boomers and the babypill-generation coming up now
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Old 27.02.2015, 20:43
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

I actually feel sorry for the frontaliers.

They work for less than somebody living in CH, they get a fortune back home but it's a crappy country, health care - free but crap, you are feeding the bums and lazy folk who are sucking the government tit and don't want to work, you get to spend 4 hours a day in traffic in your car, you also live near the border where prices are higher than the rest of the country so what do you get? If you get sacked you don't get CH unemployment money 80% but you get the French one which will be substantially lower and inline with French wages. So in reality you can't buy a house etc because you have no security to pay your loan once you stop working in CH.

A very small portion of your tax goes to CH. You don't get C permit or citizenship. You can never integrate in CH.

French people REFUSE to live in GVA not because of expensive flats or difficult to find good homes but JUST BECAUSE they will get UNBELIEVABLE money compared to what they would get in France for the same job. They don't see more than their noses that this is not good for them or their family on the long run.

Anyway, if you like spending your mornings and evenings in your car listening to the traffic report fine by me
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Old 27.02.2015, 20:45
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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But a lot is invested locally into the Professional education and into schools exactly by Cantons liike Geneva and Vaud and Basel and Zürich
...
Yes, depending a bit upon the field, this is not completely wrong.


However,
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...
The foreigners have to fill the gap left open by the retiring baby-boomers and the babypill-generation coming up now
giving this as a fact,
how come FC fail its forecast on numbers more than 1:10 (they wanted to make the Swiss believe that annual net growing is plus 8.000, which is simply ridiculous, with all its gaps in investment in infrastructure, which is very sad) and stupidly keep on repeating for years that salary dumping does not exist? I don't think this is normal.
And yes, this is a Swiss problem, of which frontaliers are only one part.
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  #53  
Old 27.02.2015, 20:52
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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Just build more? Is Switzerland running out of land or what?
Open Google map and look at the size of Switzerland.
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  #54  
Old 27.02.2015, 20:57
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

Yes I do feel sorry for myself:-) It's great that not everyone thinks the same, it would be sad otherwise. But don't let yourself influence too much by the Swiss press about the "crappy" country. I read Le Temps every day, and they tend to talk negatively about France all the time, a bit like the FT talking about continental Europe. I always found it a no-brainer to live on the French side if you look at things in an objective way. Houses are 50% cheaper, social life is a bit more relaxed, there is more going on and you do not feel controlled all the time. I also find people are a bit less materialistic in France but that's a personal opinion. For us coming with 3 kids from freewheeling Cyprus, we would have run into problems immediately in Switzerland with neighbours. But the main argument was obviously that we did not want to live in one of these tiny 1980s flats in Geneva. Yes there are of course drawbacks, but they are more than compensated by the pluses in my opinion. I wouldn't want to be 4 hours in traffic everyday either, luckily it's 30 minutes only (yes on the motorbike, you can hate me for that as well:-)

Last edited by belgo; 27.02.2015 at 21:02. Reason: changed sentence about Le Temps
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Old 27.02.2015, 21:41
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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I love how two Zürcher explain the reality of frontaliers to Geneva and Basel.
That was a Swiss argument.

Please 1
Make the difference between agreeing and tolerating.

Please 2
Make the difference between the reasoning logic and the topic itself.

Now I really sound like a teacher, I let you to it.

I suppose that the situation about the Grenzgänger/Frontaliers in Geneva, Basel and Zürich can be compared, at least to some extent. The differences of course matter in a way. The MCG in Geneva can be compared with the SVP in Zürich. While the situation in Ticino looks different , you can compare the Lega die Ticinesi with the Geneva MCG, again only to some extent.
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Old 27.02.2015, 21:57
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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Yes, depending a bit upon the field, this is not completely wrong.


However,
giving this as a fact,
how come FC fail its forecast on numbers more than 1:10 (they wanted to make the Swiss believe that annual net growing is plus 8.000, which is simply ridiculous, with all its gaps in investment in infrastructure, which is very sad) and stupidly keep on repeating for years that salary dumping does not exist? I don't think this is normal.
And yes, this is a Swiss problem, of which frontaliers are only one part.

Forecasts can only be rough estimates -- a lot of money is invested into the infrastructure -- just look at the expansion of VBZ/ZVV with the direct tunnel-link between HB and Oerlikon, the expanded HB with the Löwenstrasse side-station, the expanded Oerlikon-Station with additional rails and a Shopping mall below the railways, the Highway tunnel below the Uetliberg, dependence complexes of both ETH and Uni, ongoing Expansion programs of the hospitals, new Schools buildings -- example, the fairly new building of the Commercial School (KV) in Zürich


Trades Unionists complained for decades, at least since the 1960ies, about salary dumping ( a big topic in the media)


The frontaliers/Grenzgänger are primarily a needed solution to the problems created by the economic growth
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Old 27.02.2015, 23:04
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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I suppose that the situation about the Grenzgänger/Frontaliers in Geneva, Basel and Zürich can be compared, at least to some extent.
Not really, no. And MCG is far more straightforward in naming their scapegoat. The SVP/UDC is softer and goes federal, the MCG is a local island phenomenon reflecting the interests of the municipalities outside of the actual city of Geneva and nothing else. In the Canton and Republique, the city votes very differently. The trafic situation is typical: the villages around the city block every solution involving expention of urban areas or any infrastuctural change to face increasing trafic. The canton does therefore everything to reduce trafic in and out the city but the commuting needs are irreductable in these context. I understand that the people of those villages don't want to change anything to their nice surroundings, but so do people in any city in the world. It doesn't matter that there is a frontier inbetween, it's a classic of any urban development even without the border. Making it a question foreigners/city is just a big lie. Ask Londoners.
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Old 27.02.2015, 23:44
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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Open Google map and look at the size of Switzerland.
It's larger than most US states that I've lived in or near.

And with a lower population density.

Tom
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Old 28.02.2015, 00:13
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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Not really, no. And MCG is far more straightforward in naming their scapegoat. The SVP/UDC is softer and goes federal, the MCG is a local island phenomenon reflecting the interests of the municipalities outside of the actual city of Geneva and nothing else. In the Canton and Republique, the city votes very differently. The trafic situation is typical: the villages around the city block every solution involving expention of urban areas or any infrastuctural change to face increasing trafic. The canton does therefore everything to reduce trafic in and out the city but the commuting needs are irreductable in these context. I understand that the people of those villages don't want to change anything to their nice surroundings, but so do people in any city in the world. It doesn't matter that there is a frontier inbetween, it's a classic of any urban development even without the border. Making it a question foreigners/city is just a big lie. Ask Londoners.

Makes sense. The MCG reflects the history of Geneva which only in 1815 joined CH as the least evil solution available
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Old 28.02.2015, 00:31
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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It's larger than most US states that I've lived in or near.

And with a lower population density.

Tom

You have to take into account
- that 85% of the Swiss population live in areas below 800 meters above sealevel
- 50% of the country are Alpine mountains
- Areas like the Jura in Neuchâtel and Jura plus the Emmental (State of Bern) are only scarcely inhabited


All this means that the rest with states like Zürch and Basel (BS&BL) and Schaffhausen is rather densely populated. Suppose that the State of Zürich in regard to Population density is only beaten by the State of New York, and most likely comparable to Connecticut and Rhode Island
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