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  #81  
Old 28.02.2015, 19:47
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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YOUR comparison btw. is rubbish in so far as if you compare the SVP in the various parts of the Canton of Zürich and the SVP in Thurgau, and the SVP in St. Gallen, it is not the same.
My point exactly: UDC Geneva is very friendly with MCG, and the rest of the SVP keep their distance, especially Bern but also Zürich, let them do their local cuisine as long as the federal politics is not affected by it. UDC Geneva can't afford to be softer than the MCG on the populistic brainless front, otherwise, they would just leave the field free for the MCG to replace them all together. Not at all the situation in other cantons.
I admit that I leave Ticino where it is, I do not know enough to compare.
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  #82  
Old 28.02.2015, 19:51
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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My point exactly: UDC Geneva is very friendly with MCG, and the rest of the SVP keep their distance, especially Bern but also Zürich, let them do their local cuisine as long as the federal politics is not affected by it. UDC Geneva can't afford to be softer than the MCG on the populistic brainless front, otherwise, they would just leave the field free for the MCG to replace them all together. Not at all the situation in other cantons.
I admit that I leave Ticino where it is, I do not know enough to compare.

A strange comparison yes but the MCG is doing it the other way round from Marine LePen who carefully moved he FN from the far right to the centre to make it attractive for the Gaullists
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  #83  
Old 02.03.2015, 16:24
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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I actually feel sorry for the frontaliers.
If you get sacked you don't get CH unemployment money 80% but you get the French one which will be substantially lower and inline with French wages.
Just to set the record straight, yes you get FR unemployment benefits if you get sacked and they are at around 60% instead of 80% in CH but for max 3 years instead of 1.5y and based on Swiss earnings not French wages. Not that they will like you, I had a Swiss friend unemployed for while and French unemployment office did not like it at all that he had such high benefits. It's a too good to be true deal for Switzerland of course as frontaliers pay their assurance-chômage contributions in Switzerland but when the risk materialises, it is France that has to pick up the bill. And no Switzerland does not pay back any of the AC contributions to France .
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  #84  
Old 02.03.2015, 17:26
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

Totally agree that the MCG propaganda and attitudes don't help, at all! But simplifying the situation the other way round is not either. I am part of a working party looking at the issues here in Neuchâtel (where the situation is VERY different btw- geographically, different types of industry, and also because tax is not paid at source here, but 4.5% retroceded by the French gvt- with our Commune benefiting quite significantly).

Because of our speciality in quality watch-making and precision engineering here in Neuch- it is absolutely clear that we could NOT survive without quality trained workforce from France- and that our 5% un-employed would not be suitable for those jobs!!! No question. And yet- it is also clear that salary dumping (not low- as Neuchâtel is the only Canton to have a minimum wage, and also regulated tarifs for watch-making jobs, etc) is taking place- with qualified workforce from France happy to take jobs at lower wages than the Swiss, but still much much better off, especially recently due to exchange rate). Villages in the near French area are growing like mushrooms- with beautiful and large family villas, and teh 10.000 cars that cross over every day are all brand new and high quality motors (local gvt is working very hard at trying to encourage public transport and car-sharing- with meeting-up with huge resistance). Not a problem where I live, but towns like Le Locle are totally grid.locked for hours both morning and evening- from 6am till 8.30 and anytime after 15.30- same for Jougne to Vallorbe- which we avoid like the plague at those times.

Geneva of course has a unique geographical situation, totally hemmed in by the French border, the Lake, the Salève and the Jura- sensitive expansion is extremely difficult. It also has poor quality air and pollution un-parralleled in Switzerland, due to above- so a bridge or tunnel should be dedicated to very low emissions public transport, not private cars. It's was made as a joke for April 1st a few years back- but it would be a good idea to have a Inner London emissions' tax for Geneva centre, imho.

Re salary dumping and HR choosing frontaliers for jobs- many local firms are owned by American, Belgian, German, etc, firms, who have been given great tax breaks and free infrastructure here to bring them in- and care little for local natives, one has to say.

So, no sweeping statements and knee-jerk simplified and silly solutions. SWitzerland absolutely needs its frontaliers- but there this is no reason for not trying to alleviate some of the related problems, no? Not à la stupid MGC, of course- and never forgetting that each Canton/area is different, in so many ways, and need different solutions.

BTW, the few firms advocating cutting frontaliers salaries due to the increase in exchange rates have of course been told this is not possible- so are now looking at cutting down salaries for all, and increasing working hours for all (many of those firms, as said above, foreign). I can totally understand why- but I can also understand that some of the Swiss workers, struggling to pay the rent for their high-rise flat here on the same salary as their frontalier collagues, with a brand new 4x4 and a 4 bed, 2 bath villa- may feel a tad green about it. I do know many young Genevans, teachers, police and nurses- who had to give up their job and move further afield when they started a family, as they just could not afford (or find for that matter) suitable housing for a family in Geneva.

BTW, can't find the post, but Belgo made a good point earlier. Our Chancellor was recently interviewed on the issues. And he said that Swiss workers working in Neuchâtel, but living in surrounding cheaper tax areas, cost the Canton a lot more than frontaliers. Neuchâtel has already reformed taxes to encourage more businesses here (very sucessfully btw), and is continuing with tax reforms which should result in Neuch becoming far more competitive in the next few years, both for individuals/families and businesses. One local high Politician who had moved to Vaud to cut his taxes, was told in no uncertain terms that he had to move back into the Canton, if he wants to keep his job (as he is elected by Neuchâtelois).

Certainly no easy quick simple fix- that is for sure.
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  #85  
Old 02.03.2015, 19:59
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

Hi Odile, this was probably the message you where referring to.

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All frontaliers pay income tax in Geneva. I think if we are talking about contributing, they should rather have a problem with the many Vaudois that work in canton Geneva but pay no tax in Geneva at all.

I agree traffic is ridiculous. But that is because Geneva never managed to build infrastructure in line with its economic growth. They have been talking about a bridge or a tunnel since forever.

Anyway, there are 40,000 more jobs in Geneva than people at working age. Take away the frontaliers and the economy collapses.
Totally agree it's a complex situation with no simple solutions. Sometimes I have the impression Geneva does not really know what it wants, on the one side it wants to be "the worlds smallest metropolis" and on the other side it wants to keep everything the way it always was. I think the housing problem is really one that Geneva has caused itself. If middle class families need to move to France in order to be able to be able to realize their property dream then there is a real problem. I have always been surprised by the absence of any real highrise building in Geneva (have a look from the top of the Salève) and the relative absence of any real change in the way the city looks(I have more than once clients who visited and said Geneva looks exactly the same then when came last time, which was 20 years ago..). Also I find it strange that you can be in real countryside 5 km from the city centre (Puplinges, Vandoeuvres,..). Of course it's all picturesque etc but somehow choices need to be made.
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Old 02.03.2015, 20:04
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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I have always been surprised by the absence of any real highrise building in Geneva .
And hopefully it will remain that way for centuries.

I hate highrises.

Rather, they should start building into the rockface.

Cave-dwelling makes a comeback!

Tom
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  #87  
Old 02.03.2015, 20:07
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

Well yes, I can truly understand why Genevans would rather have it that way, to be honest

But they do have VERY long buildings- albeit a bit further out. A friend of mine was one of the first residents of Le Lignon!
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Old 03.03.2015, 12:05
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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And hopefully it will remain that way for centuries.

I hate highrises.

Rather, they should start building into the rockface.

Cave-dwelling makes a comeback!

Tom
Tom,

High rise does not equal ugly. For example, they did a wonderful job in Barcelona integrating modern and inspiring high rise buildings in traditional neighborhoods such as Diagonal Mar and Poblenou totally transforming the area and bringing it into the 21st century. A bit more creativity and phantasy wouldn't go amiss here sometimes.
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  #89  
Old 03.03.2015, 12:21
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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And hopefully it will remain that way for centuries.

I hate highrises.

Rather, they should start building into the rockface.

Cave-dwelling makes a comeback!

Tom
why not in the other direction

also I heard that the permafrost is slowly melting...

maybe the communes at the boarders could vote not to allow any frontier workers...just a thought
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  #90  
Old 03.03.2015, 12:31
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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And hopefully it will remain that way for centuries.

I hate highrises.

Rather, they should start building into the rockface.

Cave-dwelling makes a comeback!

Tom
And who will dig these caves Tom, the Swiss?
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  #91  
Old 03.03.2015, 13:08
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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High rise does not equal ugly. ...... A bit more creativity and phantasy wouldn't go amiss here sometimes.
And therein lies the problem...the swiss only know concrete and glass...creativity...hmmm
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Old 03.03.2015, 15:33
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

You mean like the Gherkin, the Cheese Grater, and so many more in London?

Last edited by Odile; 03.03.2015 at 16:28.
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  #93  
Old 03.03.2015, 16:05
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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My point exactly: UDC Geneva is very friendly with MCG, and the rest of the SVP keep their distance, especially Bern but also Zürich, let them do their local cuisine as long as the federal politics is not affected by it. UDC Geneva can't afford to be softer than the MCG on the populistic brainless front, otherwise, they would just leave the field free for the MCG to replace them all together. Not at all the situation in other cantons.
I admit that I leave Ticino where it is, I do not know enough to compare.
In Ticino there's the Ticino League which is kinda like the MCG, but they are at odds with the local SVP chapter.
There has been a joint list for federal elections in the past I think but not anymore.
At a general level, they agree politically, but when it comes to reality it doesn't work.

The SVP is very small because of the League capturing their potential voting base, my impression is that they have some guaranteed votes thanks to right-wing confederate immigrants and their descendants who have always voted SVP and the farmers (these often coincide).
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Old 03.03.2015, 16:36
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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And hopefully it will remain that way for centuries.

I hate highrises.

Rather, they should start building into the rockface.

Cave-dwelling makes a comeback!

Tom
http://www.dezeen.com/2014/12/18/bur...er-swiss-alps/
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Old 03.03.2015, 16:44
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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In Ticino there's the Ticino League which is kinda like the MCG, but they are at odds with the local SVP chapter.
There has been a joint list for federal elections in the past I think but not anymore.
At a general level, they agree politically, but when it comes to reality it doesn't work.

The SVP is very small because of the League capturing their potential voting base, my impression is that they have some guaranteed votes thanks to right-wing confederate immigrants and their descendants who have always voted SVP and the farmers (these often coincide).
Yes, the LEGA is very big here. My wife's sister was a longtime friend of Nano. My wife thought he was a pig, but agrees with his politics, as do I.

Tom
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Old 03.03.2015, 17:07
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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You mean like the Gherkin, the Cheese Grater, and so many more in London?
Rather like Diagonal Mar in Barcelona
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  #97  
Old 03.03.2015, 17:24
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

Now tell me- where abouts in Geneva would there be space to build something similar. The geography of Barcelona and Geneva are quite, hmmm- different somehow. Now, have you visited Le Lignon yet?
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  #98  
Old 03.03.2015, 17:52
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

I would do this where there is currently countryside yet very close to Geneva (5 km).
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Old 03.03.2015, 19:54
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

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I would do this where there is currently countryside yet very close to Geneva (5 km).
The small municipalities outside of the city of Geneva have never accepted and will never accept being a part of an urban greater ensemble. They want to live in the country side at the doorstep of Geneva city. But the most voters are lower class people who can't compete with educated employees from abroad, near the frontier or not.

Fact is, it's impossible to live in Geneva on a normal salary for unskilled work anymore. But the MCG won't change anything to the structural reasons why it has come so far. Everybody is a liberal in Geneva, so the lower educated work force will loose no matter who wins what election when and for how long. The frontalier rhetoric is just a tool in the hand of people who have to other tool to get elected. Why they so want to be elected? Well... ask them what they would be doing for living if they weren't elected, that explains a lot, not every thing but a lot.
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Old 03.03.2015, 20:35
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Re: Fed up with the anti-frontalier rethoric in Geneva

I would like to point out it is also farmland. Where do you think your tomatoes come from? Great to buy from local suppliers but if you kill them all off by building on declassifed farmland, you'll be eating anything but local.
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