Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 22.03.2015, 11:54
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
IME other regions in Graubünden such as the Churer Rheintal, Davos or the Engadine are quite a bit less conservative than the Bündner Oberland where the OP resides.
The Oberland does have a reputation of being backwards even within the Canton and probably for a reason.
After conversing with Scuol locals, it seems I indeed underestimated the difference between the two valleys. Mea culpa.
The Engadin Romansh call the Surselvans "Rhätogermanen" to make fun of their apparently stuck up approach to life in the eyes of my Scuol connections. I thought it was just a bias from one valley to the other but they say it's more than that.
This user would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 22.03.2015, 12:03
Dougal's Breakfast's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: GL
Posts: 15,383
Groaned at 969 Times in 737 Posts
Thanked 38,643 Times in 12,099 Posts
Dougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
I always wondered why some couples stay together so long in relations that are obviously not a good choice for neither of them.
Quote:
Groom: I,____, take thee,_____, to be my wedded wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to god's holy ordinance; and thereto i plight thee my troth.

Bride: I,_____, take thee,_____, to be my wedded husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love, cherish, and to obey, till death us do part, according to god's holy ordinance; and thereto i give thee my troth.
hth
This user would like to thank Dougal's Breakfast for this useful post:
  #63  
Old 22.03.2015, 12:10
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,028
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,712 Times in 6,857 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
Can someone please rename this thread wrong attitude?

yesANDno, as it is two topics, the wrong attitudes of a couple AND the conservative notions of corners of a rather conservative Canton
  #64  
Old 22.03.2015, 12:19
Captain Greybeard's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sarganserland / NW Lower Peninsula of NE US Midwest
Posts: 3,183
Groaned at 40 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 6,415 Times in 2,036 Posts
Captain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
yesANDno, as it is two topics, the wrong attitudes of a couple AND the conservative notions of corners of a rather conservative Canton
And wine from Maienfeld and Jenins! You forgot to mention the wine. Very important!
The following 6 users would like to thank Captain Greybeard for this useful post:
  #65  
Old 22.03.2015, 12:30
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,028
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,712 Times in 6,857 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
After conversing with Scuol locals, it seems I indeed underestimated the difference between the two valleys. Mea culpa.
The Engadin Romansh call the Surselvans "Rhätogermanen" to make fun of their apparently stuck up approach to life in the eyes of my Scuol connections. I thought it was just a bias from one valley to the other but they say it's more than that.

The Engiadina is Special in a different way as being between Italy and Austria. I still remember Celerina/Schlarigna in about 1982. I (in the uniform of the artillery) . entered a charming cafe/Bistro and heard everybody talking RomanshEngiadinais and simply talked to all in Italian . I later heard that this Bistro had a bad reputation among German Speakers as they were regarded as ROMANISCHE SEPARATISTEN but I was there (was in the kitchen 0530-0830 1100-1400 1730-2000) almost daily for three weeks. I in those 3 weeks, in the evening after 18.15, was in charge with the sale of the WINES ! and we had really good VELTLINER Weine


************************************************** **********************************************


Quote:
View Post
And wine from Maienfeld and Jenins! You forgot to mention the wine. Very important!

Indeed. BUT I never heard about wines from the GraubündenOutback. While they in the KANTON SCHWYZ produce really good wine (LEUTSCHEN)


Here the Details


Leutschen




KantonSchwyzGrösse5.30 haTraubensortenRiesling-Sylvaner, Räuschling, Pinot gris, Freisamer, Sauvignon blanc, Solaris, Blauburgunder, Regent, Garanoir, Cabernet, DornfelderZwischen Freienbach und Wilen finden sich auf der vom See abgeneigten Südflanke des Waldisbergs die Rebberge der Leutschen. Auf diesem Molasserücken aus Sandstein florierten denn auch schon in frühesten Zeiten zwei althergebrachte Gewerbe, die Steinhauerei an der Nordflanke, der Weinbau an seiner Südseite. Die Rebberge auf der Leutschen wurden erstmals 1430 erwähnt.
Anfangs 20. Jahrhundert verlor der Rebbau an der Leutschen an Bedeutung. In den fünfziger Jahren erreichte er mit 6,8 ha Anbaufläche seinen Tiefstand. Liebevolle Pflege der Reben sowie eine fachgerechte Kelterung verliehen dem Leutschner seinen guten Ruf. Die Nachfrage stieg allmählich und rief ab 1960 nach einer Ausdehnung der Anbaufläche. In unserer Zeit hat das Rebgebiet an der Leutschen auch in landschaftlicher Hinsicht an Bedeutung gewonnen. Der neu angelegte Rebpfad erklärt anhand von Infotafeln dem Interessierten viel Wissenswertes über den Weinbau.


their wine is sold, for example, at LACHEN AIRFIELD BISTRO


alright, let s be clear, it is expensive, also by Swiss Standards, but excellent Quality and a rather peculiar background

Last edited by Wollishofener; 22.03.2015 at 12:44.
  #66  
Old 22.03.2015, 12:52
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,138
Groaned at 927 Times in 723 Posts
Thanked 19,709 Times in 9,475 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
The Engiadina is Special in a different way as being between Italy and Austria. I still remember Celerina/Schlarigna in about 1982. I (in the uniform of the artillery) . entered a charming cafe/Bistro and heard everybody talking RomanshEngiadinais and simply talked to all in Italian .
Italian works quite well in Surselva as well (when I forget my limited Surselvan), especially with the Police.

Tom
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 22.03.2015, 13:20
speakeron's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 728
Groaned at 24 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 645 Times in 319 Posts
speakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
By the way, out of interest, what is a "cheffine"?

[image of user's public profile]
Ok, this isn't very nice. What you done here is essentially doxing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing). Yes, I know that the public profile is only a click away but that's for people to decide whether to view. You took an enlarged image of that information and dropped it into the thread in a manner that could only serve as a kind of humiliation for the OP.

As a moderator you should know better (oh, and please delete the image).
This user groans at speakeron for this post:
  #68  
Old 22.03.2015, 13:37
Mark75's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: by the lake (either one)
Posts: 2,409
Groaned at 44 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 2,897 Times in 1,267 Posts
Mark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
Surselva is my favorite part of GR.
That's probably mostly because the Lucomagno is an awesome pass road.
The following 2 users would like to thank Mark75 for this useful post:
  #69  
Old 22.03.2015, 13:57
Captain Greybeard's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sarganserland / NW Lower Peninsula of NE US Midwest
Posts: 3,183
Groaned at 40 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 6,415 Times in 2,036 Posts
Captain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
Ok, this isn't very nice. What you done here is essentially doxing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing). Yes, I know that the public profile is only a click away but that's for people to decide whether to view. You took an enlarged image of that information and dropped it into the thread in a manner that could only serve as a kind of humiliation for the OP.

As a moderator you should know better (oh, and please delete the image).
Doxing involves research and data harvesting. Looking at a profile that is just one click away and then asking a valid questing is far from that.
This user would like to thank Captain Greybeard for this useful post:
  #70  
Old 22.03.2015, 14:04
speakeron's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 728
Groaned at 24 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 645 Times in 319 Posts
speakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
Doxing involves research and data harvesting. Looking at a profile that is just one click away and then asking a valid questing is far from that.
Even if it wasn't before (I think it was and that post would probably have been removed from a forum like Hacker News), when the user in question has subsequently deleted her profile it most certainly does become doxing.

And a valid question could have been achieved with a 'I see you do so-and-so, what is that?'. The rest of the information didn't need to be displayed in large format.
This user would like to thank speakeron for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 22.03.2015, 14:29
M_McPoyle's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: ZG
Posts: 343
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 1,138 Times in 283 Posts
M_McPoyle has a reputation beyond reputeM_McPoyle has a reputation beyond reputeM_McPoyle has a reputation beyond reputeM_McPoyle has a reputation beyond reputeM_McPoyle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
I live in a kanton that is very special . The women here are 2nd class citizens, treated like slaves, and are to obey their husbands. Fortunatly I have visited enough Kantons to realize that its just my Kanton and living in a remote village . Its beautiful here , but not a place for a strong woman.
The above reminds me of the 2006 swiss film "Herbstzeitlosen" - a story about a group of women coming to terms with their self-identity in old age. The film is set in the beautiful and traditional Emmental region and I found it a joy to watch. One thing that I didn't enjoy so much, however, was the sometimes seemingly over-the-top controlling, dismissive or insulting treatment of these women by the men in their lives (sons, husbands, neighbours, etc.) - handled in such a way as to portray it as the norm in this area and within certain generations.

This part of the film stuck with me and was brought up in conversation with some swiss friends who seemed to think that it is entirely possible that such widespread "old fashioned" treatment of women exists there and in other "traditional" areas. Of course, a movie is just a movie, and the film received some criticism (according to wiki) for portraying the Emmental as a bit "backward". However, it would seem to point to the possibility that in the (Swiss) popular imagination, this is how things can be in these more traditional Kantons. If so, I certainly cannot blame the OP for wondering if it is a societal thing she is dealing with (or just a controlling jerk of a spouse).

Last edited by 3Wishes; 23.03.2015 at 16:05. Reason: changed name in quoted text
The following 2 users would like to thank M_McPoyle for this useful post:
  #72  
Old 22.03.2015, 14:39
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,028
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,712 Times in 6,857 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
Even if it wasn't before (I think it was and that post would probably have been removed from a forum like Hacker News), when the user in question has subsequently deleted her profile it most certainly does become doxing.

And a valid question could have been achieved with a 'I see you do so-and-so, what is that?'. The rest of the information didn't need to be displayed in large format.

I have the Impression that if you go to Brigels/Breil and ask People for that weird aggressive extreme American Lady ( diä komischi aggressivi und ä chli extremi Amerikanerin ) you will be shown the right way ! and some will tell you also dass deeee nonig d'Scheidig iiiigreicht häd .... aber bitte
This user would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #73  
Old 22.03.2015, 16:08
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 3,039
Groaned at 99 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 3,773 Times in 1,950 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
Could somebody please post the legal source of a 3-years rule for keeping on a marriage after facilitated naturalization? Sorry if already done, then my mistake.


If OP is married for 8 years, it's very unlikely that it could be considered a sham marriage, imho.
See this page (no english version), specifically chapter 6 page 3 with "Die erleichterte Einbürgerung nach Artikel 27 BüG setzt [..] das Bestehen einer tatsächlichen, stabilen ehelichen Gemeinschaft voraus. Massgebend ist hierfür vor allem der auf die Zukunft gerichtete Wille des eingebürgerten Ehepartners, eine tatsächliche Ehe zu führen. Bestehen Anzeichen für eine Scheinehe oder eine Ehe, die keine Lebensgemeinschaft mehr darstellt, kann die Einbürgerung nicht erfolgen." [bold by me]

I.e. simplified naturalization requires a stable marriage with a sound future at the time the request is filed, which of course isn't the case if either is harboring thoughts for separation or divorce, or is actually planning for it as OP appears to be when she says that
-"sitting quietly and giving him enough rope to hang himself is the intelligent way of doing this. "
and
-"I have a probation time of 3 years . It is the law in my canton I am not wasting 9 years of my life here to be packed up and shipped home with nothing."

Add her separate apartment and you may have a marriage that even today exists only on paper. Which, obviously, would mean the simplified naturalization is based false grounds and should be revoked.

Granted, the onus to prove it is on the government and the bars are rightfully set high, and the typical constellation is a refused asylum seekeer who enters a sham marriage. But with that said I'd be surprised if they didn't at least dig a bit if told abut this case, particularly when OP is with near-certainty identifiable with less than five minutes online search.
The following 4 users would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #74  
Old 22.03.2015, 16:16
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,363
Groaned at 368 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 22,372 Times in 10,066 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Whatever one thinks about OP and motives, rights and wrongs- she has deleted her profile and location- and I really believe quoted location should be deleted by Mods- I've written to them to this effect.
This user would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #75  
Old 22.03.2015, 16:28
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,718
Groaned at 88 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 11,205 Times in 5,568 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Ok, Sherlocks..There is obviously somebody in distress, hence the strange online performance we all noticed. I do not think that digging the hole deeper for her will help her, her partner or our community.

I know loads of folks took this thread as entertaining, it does seem sad, more than anything, even if it is not true, soliciting undeserved online support is probably even sadder.

Let's leave aside our assumptions of what might or not might be happening in her life, to not provoke her oversharing even more. We do not know. And if somebody has experienced unjust treatment, how can we say it is not true..or feel right pointing fingers at her that it is her fault?

I have higher expectations of our membership, there are a bunch of kind people out there and we can read it from our EF pages on a daily basis. There are times like these, however, trolls aside, when some people will feel the urge to vent, in a not very logical way.

Move on.

Thanks.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H.Pestalozzi
The following 3 users would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #76  
Old 22.03.2015, 16:36
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,363
Groaned at 368 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 22,372 Times in 10,066 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Agreed but before- but please delete location in quoted posts- as OP has deleted her location from profile- to be fair.
This user would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #77  
Old 22.03.2015, 16:46
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,028
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,712 Times in 6,857 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
Ok, Sherlocks..There is obviously somebody in distress, hence the strange online performance we all noticed. I do not think that digging the hole deeper for her will help her, her partner or our community.

I know loads of folks took this thread as entertaining, it does seem sad, more than anything, even if it is not true, soliciting undeserved online support is probably even sadder.

Let's leave aside our assumptions of what might or not might be happening in her life, to not provoke her oversharing even more. We do not know. And if somebody has experienced unjust treatment, how can we say it is not true..or feel right pointing fingers at her that it is her fault?

I have higher expectations of our membership, there are a bunch of kind people out there and we can read it from our EF pages on a daily basis. There are times like these, however, trolls aside, when some people will feel the urge to vent, in a not very logical way.

Move on.

Thanks.

Sorry but the person in StMaryMead/Graubünden is just in self-inflicted distress, and in the end got aggressive against all on EF in total. I cannot judge whose guilt the whole mess is and still feel that SHE is the victim but first to verbally attack the husband and his homeland and then agressively defend both simply is rubbish


and to delete Internet entries is not helpful at all as Internet records stay as they are for ages
The following 2 users would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #78  
Old 22.03.2015, 16:48
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: ZH
Posts: 4,438
Groaned at 55 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 2,163 Times in 1,310 Posts
SOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
Sorry but the person in StMaryMead/Graubünden is just in self-inflicted distress, and in the end got aggressive against all on EF in total. I cannot judge whose guilt the whole mess is and still feel that SHE is the victim but first to verbally attack the husband and his homeland and then agressively defend both simply is rubbish


and to delete Internet entries is not helpful at all as Internet records stay as they are for ages
Can you blame her.
  #79  
Old 22.03.2015, 17:00
speakeron's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 728
Groaned at 24 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 645 Times in 319 Posts
speakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
and to delete Internet entries is not helpful at all as Internet records stay as they are for ages
While it's true that information sucked from the internet tends to stay, removal of the references now would shortly stop them showing up in casual internet searches. It then takes more effort and mens rea to dig it up. For example, this thread hasn't appeared on archive.org yet; at some point it will with all the information present at the point of scraping.
This user would like to thank speakeron for this useful post:
  #80  
Old 22.03.2015, 17:18
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,975
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,262 Times in 5,012 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: wrong Kanton

Quote:
View Post
I see where you're coming from. Typical marriage in Graubünden: The husband makes the big decisions, the wife makes the small ones.
That's what's made my marriage successfull. Now, after 24 years of marriage, there haven't actually been any big decisions to make, but when one comes, I'm ready for it.

Quote:
View Post
... Its beautiful here , but not a place for a strong woman.Anyone else feel this way questionmark....if so it would be nice to meet a friend.
I would have thought that strong women would do fine. Weak compliant women will do fine also. I bet there are women who are not compliant and not submissive living quite happily there, precisely because they are strong.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 23.03.2015 at 16:06. Reason: changed name in quoted text
The following 3 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
Closed Thread




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Change job and Kanton, need to inform the Kanton office? Magic116 Other/general 3 28.04.2014 20:48
Wrong Barèmes charlotte1 Finance/banking/taxation 0 13.09.2013 11:29
Wrong man arrested Sbrinz International affairs/politics 5 23.06.2012 12:44


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0