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  #21  
Old 30.05.2015, 22:58
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Re: License plate stolen

Roegner, I agree that the initial fault was mine! Trust me, I know how it feels to have your parking spot taken. It happens occasionally to me (even though my spot is marked), but I usually leave notes on the windshield.

And, if you read through my posts, you will see that I have already been to the police (to make sure I am allowed to drive with the front plate only until a solution is found), but I postponed any real action until I can speak to him first.

I am trying to make it clear that I am currently waiting for this guy to return, since I have no means of contacting him. How am I supposed to go and apologize if he is not there? My friend (who, I repeat, is his next door neighbour) does not have his phone number. I tried searching the phone directory by name, but he is not listed.

Any suggestions welcome!
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Old 30.05.2015, 23:07
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Re: License plate stolen

Thanks for clarifying this. I think it was more implicit.

I guess then that you have been unknowingly parking in his allocated space for 6/7 times. It might be that he tolerated the previous times and he just lost it today in a big fashion?

I personally think he should have left a note or attempted at finding the owner of the car. But I can also see why he reacted this way- 6 to 7 times can try anyone's patience. There are essentially three guilty parties here: you- for having unknowingly parked in his space- not once, but several times; your friend- for not having corrected you (I am assuming she may have come at least once to see you off at the parking?); and the man for the vandalism and theft (which he shouldn't have done- he could have phoned the police instead for this "trespassing" ). The neighbour could have informed you too when she saw this happening instead of being a passive observer.

As for marking a space as private, I don't see this in the 20-odd parking spaces in front of my building. All we have are faint yellow lines with much more fainter numbers. And somehow such instances are avoided. Visitors do have 3 dedicated spaces, but extra visitors park on the designated spaces on the road (and they have to pay).

I suppose it is like going to the communal laundry room during your laundry slot and finding someone occupying all machines. The first time, you may be annoyed. But if it repeats, the annoyance simply builds up. I am more of the shrugging it off kind (at the extreme- leaving a polite note), but others do react differently.
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Old 30.05.2015, 23:11
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Re: License plate stolen

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How long have you been here in CH? All yellow lined parking spots are private. Some white ones are for visitors. Take note of that especially when entering a private area (ie. an appartment parking lot).
In our place, the yellow lines in parking are for the visitors.

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Go to him with your friend, with a gift and sincere apology&explanation for your misunderstanding. He might be only a grumpy old man.
Excuse me? Hell no. If he did let a note, yes, absolutely.

But the guy trashed the car and stole her plate. This is not acceptable and she shouldn't play the door mat fro him.

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Someone once parked on my rented parking space. I left a note telling him that this was a private space. Next morning that person had left an apology in writing and a nice bottle of wine
That is an appropriate action with a great apology response.
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Old 30.05.2015, 23:12
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Re: License plate stolen

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Roegner, I agree that the initial fault was mine! Trust me, I know how it feels to have your parking spot taken. It happens occasionally to me (even though my spot is marked), but I usually leave notes on the windshield.

And, if you read through my posts, you will see that I have already been to the police (to make sure I am allowed to drive with the front plate only until a solution is found), but I postponed any real action until I can speak to him first.

I am trying to make it clear that I am currently waiting for this guy to return, since I have no means of contacting him. How am I supposed to go and apologize if he is not there? My friend (who, I repeat, is his next door neighbour) does not have his phone number. I tried searching the phone directory by name, but he is not listed.

Any suggestions welcome!
Well, since it was a passive-aggressive behaviour from his part and no direct confrontation: use the same method, minus aggressiveness.
Write a note with clear apology and explanation, and ask him to return the plate to your neighbour - i.e. leave it by the door. Attach a good bottle of wine. He should be able to find them whenever he "returns" home.
Hope could work....
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Old 30.05.2015, 23:13
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Re: License plate stolen

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I am trying to make it clear that I am currently waiting for this guy to return, since I have no means of contacting him. How am I supposed to go and apologize if he is not there? My friend (who, I repeat, is his next door neighbour) does not have his phone number. I tried searching the phone directory by name, but he is not listed.
Options:
Google his name. Something might turn up.
Leave a note on his mailbox.
Call the concierge or the gerance/landlord- they may have his number
(none of my neighbours have my number nor am I in the directory, but the concierge definitely does!)

If the police said that you can drive with only the front plates, then I suggest waiting patiently. Hopefully, he would lose his anger by then and might be reasonable.
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Old 30.05.2015, 23:15
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Re: License plate stolen

If you were sure that the one who took your plates is the owner of the parking place , it is shameless from you to go to the police . he was patient with you more than four times as you said and never declared that to the police or even did anything bad against you or your car . but you declared that to the police from the first one !!!

your best decision was to drive your car and never show up there till you know the next time when you are allowed to park your car .( you even choose the middle parking place to get more comfort dealing with your child ?!!

you got lucky man , many found their parking place reserved from someone else , they just let their cars in way to block the unwanted gift , close their handy and never show up for weeks.
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  #27  
Old 31.05.2015, 00:04
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Re: License plate stolen

I just talked to an acquaintance who is a (Swiss) retired lawyer. According to him, the license plates do not belong to the owner of the vehicle, they belong to the state (Kanton). So, having them removed is a very serious matter.

Also, blocking a trespasser (not allowing him to leave from a parking place) is a serious criminal offence (Erpressung). [Simpa, I groaned you because you seem to imply that blocking a trespasser is ok.]

I also learnt that, unless some costly legal procedure is done, there is pretty much nothing one can do against trespassers (it is illegal to block them, or ask them for money). The best action against trespassers is to clearly mark the spot.

Thankfully, I got all this information for free!

So, next time someone parks on my parking place, I guess I will do what I have always done: Leave a message!

Last edited by MarKanLu; 31.05.2015 at 00:08. Reason: Clarification
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  #28  
Old 31.05.2015, 01:06
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Re: License plate stolen

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There, the "investigator" explained to me that she would rather that I try to settle the issue directly with the guy who took my number plates. The reason is that otherwise, if I decide to sue (right word?), there will be a lot of work for her (which I understand). I explained to her that the people in the neighbourhood said it was Mr. XX who took the plate. But obviously, I am not a detective, I did not think of writing down the names of these "witnesses".
My general impression was that Swiss police tries to leave certain disputes to individuals to solve in a civilized manner. I wondered when I stumbled upon this thread how plain vandalism and theft (of cantonal property, as you explained) could be one of those. How much work does it actually mean for the investigator?

Based on your description, my guess is that guy knew about you and your wrongdoing and despite of this he acted in such manner premeditatively, instead of leaving you a note or contacting your friend/his neighbour. I would first go get the plates pronto accompanied by the police. Also file a complain to the building administration.

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I also learnt that, unless some costly legal procedure is done, there is pretty much nothing one can do against trespassers (it is illegal to block them, or ask them for money). The best action against trespassers is to clearly mark the spot.
How about getting the car towed? Anyone knows how to deal with people like the OP?
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  #29  
Old 31.05.2015, 04:34
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Re: License plate stolen

WTF, someone essentially vandalizes a car and steals license plates, and there is an argument of "serves you right" going around?

Are you guys freaking serious? You must be the sort of people that arghue that "don't wear short skirts and you won't get raped", albeit a couple of stages before that absolute madness.


Stop treating f-ing parking spots like its your living room. If someone parks at your place it's not a home invasion ffs, take a chill pill, call the police, call a tow truck, or whatever. Going apeshit crazy on the offenders car is trotwlly unacceptable and completely unjustifiable. People don't solve personal differences like this in what is supposedly a 1st world country qndma civilized & educated society.

Our society has more than enough ways to deal with illegal parking, thank god for that (never the thought I'd say that one), people finding "creative" solutions to what can be a truly aggravating problem is utterly unacceptable.

If the guy in the story wants nobody to touch his parking spot, he should get one behind a locked gate. If he can't have that one, he clearly mark that his place is private (which apparently he didn't in this case), and hope people will respect that.


The fact that some people won't respect that is part of life and he should accept it, whether he likes it or not. If anything, going apeshit crazy doesn't help anyone and in any way applauding these totally disanalogous responses only supports behaviour worse than the parking offender's.

The guy lost every right to complain about parking when he started pulling off plates and egging cars. So please,, for the love of god, if you don't care about being normal adjusted people with appropriate responses to various situations in your lives, you could at least think of your own interest and contain such thoughts and just do what you're supposed to do and what will not come back like a boomerang to hit you in the ass...
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Old 31.05.2015, 09:48
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Re: License plate stolen

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The fact that some people won't respect that is part of life and he should accept it, whether he likes it or not. If anything, going apeshit crazy doesn't help anyone and in any way applauding these totally disanalogous responses only supports behaviour worse than the parking offender's.

The guy lost every right to complain about parking when he started pulling off plates and egging cars. So please,, for the love of god, if you don't care about being normal adjusted people with appropriate responses to various situations in your lives, you could at least think of your own interest and contain such thoughts and just do what you're supposed to do and what will not come back like a boomerang to hit you in the ass...
OP went to police and they told her to try and solve the matter in a "civilised" manner. What's more to comment here? (re. those multiple ways our society has)

You can't "fix" crazy with more crazy, not without making things worse. OP's friend has to continue living with the next door neighbour, there are colours and nuances here, nothing is black and white.
P.S. And there's a difference between applauding his behaviour and trying to deal with that type of person (crazy) in a way that won't make things really bad for OP's friend.

Last edited by greenmount; 31.05.2015 at 10:12.
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  #31  
Old 31.05.2015, 10:18
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Re: License plate stolen

I have to agree that it's a bit dumb-ass slating the OP for parking in someone's bay, unknowingly.
Although ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law, if they genuinely believed it to be for visitor parking, and their friend, who lives there, didn't inform him to the contrary, then it's just an unfortunate error.

Often, with apartment blocks, residents have other or underground, secure parking, with the few spaces at the front for visitors - although, when many of these blocks were built, not everyone had cars, let alone two per apartment.

What is completely stupid is that the holder of this space was undoubtedly aware of the previous times the OP parked here and chose to do nothing, other than fume in private, and now, on this occasion, has snapped.

I also wondered, if the removal of the number plates was more significant than just pure theft/vandalism - it also means that, technically, the car can't be driven because of invalidated insurance.

No - a return visit to lazy plod is in order, who should not shirk their responsibilities and start to take some affirmative action to remedy the situation.

Typical police (like everywhere) - never there when you need them, but quick to jump, when you don't (when there's fine revenue involved).
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  #32  
Old 31.05.2015, 11:40
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Re: License plate stolen

I'm not sure the guy is actually beyond reason - he doesn't know it was an honest mistake so he probably assumes she was using his parking spot on purpose. And he didn't do any permanent damage, everything so far can be fixed easily (eggs and crayon on the windshield can easily be washed off), that's not vandalism or trashing. By not being around for some time he may simply intend to teach OP a lesson.

So the question is, does OP want go over the top like the neighbor, or does she want to de-escalate? It appears she leans to the latter, but also wants to show him a big "STOP" sign, figuratively speaking. Additionally, OPs friend probably won't mind NOT being in a "war" situation with the guy next door.

I think theft is not an official offense. Meaning, if you report him now but withdraw that later on, then that case is immediately closed and not proceeded further (do verify this assumption with the police). So personally, I'd speak to him once he's back (bring at least one witness, preferably male in case things get physical), include an apology but also show him that he went over the top with the theft. Then report him, perhaps subject to how the talk went. Some time after he got "interviewed" by police I'd withdraw the report(charge?).

As for providing the police with the names of those confirming his theft:
That's a reasonable request, why have the police go around ring all neighbors when OP can easily give the names on their mailboxes/doorbell plates.

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I also wondered, if the removal of the number plates was more significant than just pure theft/vandalism - it also means that, technically, the car can't be driven because of invalidated insurance.
I don't think so. The plates are merely proof that the car is allowed on the roads, and a simple means to identify the owner. The insurance contract on the other hand, as well as the "permit to drive the car on the roads", still are in place. Plus, if the plates had any significance by themselves you certainly couldn't make a replacement yourself (see me.anon's post).
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  #33  
Old 31.05.2015, 12:06
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Re: License plate stolen

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I don't think so. The plates are merely proof that the car is allowed on the roads, and a simple means to identify the owner. The insurance contract on the other hand, as well as the "permit to drive the car on the roads", still are in place. Plus, if the plates had any significance by themselves you certainly couldn't make a replacement yourself (see me.anon's post).
The plates remain the property of the issuing authority, and can not be reproduced or replicated by the registered owner. Theft is against the Kantonal issuing OCN/AMT SVN and probably more serious than theft from an individual.

Regarding insurance, when a vehicle isn't being used or left on public roads, the plates can be removed and returned to the OCN, giving the owner a rebate on their insurance premium for same said period. So, this could certainly be a grey area, if shit ever hits the fan, whilst driving without plate(s).
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  #34  
Old 31.05.2015, 12:10
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Re: License plate stolen

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I just talked to an acquaintance who is a (Swiss) retired lawyer. According to him, the license plates do not belong to the owner of the vehicle, they belong to the state (Kanton). So, having them removed is a very serious matter.

Also, blocking a trespasser (not allowing him to leave from a parking place) is a serious criminal offence (Erpressung). [Simpa, I groaned you because you seem to imply that blocking a trespasser is ok.]

I also learnt that, unless some costly legal procedure is done, there is pretty much nothing one can do against trespassers (it is illegal to block them, or ask them for money). The best action against trespassers is to clearly mark the spot.

Thankfully, I got all this information for free!

So, next time someone parks on my parking place, I guess I will do what I have always done: Leave a message!

yes you really have no clue how is the feeling when you come back home from hard day at the end of day , driving from driving in traffic jam to another , and once you arrived home , you find someone like you in his place !!

Drive license in this country it is not just about how you can move and stop your car , but it is also about where you are allowed to park or not , if i am the police man i will take it away from you as by parking in the wrong place , you proved you are not able to drive correctly in this country
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  #35  
Old 31.05.2015, 12:27
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Re: License plate stolen

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yes you really have no clue how is the feeling when you come back home from hard day at the end of day , driving from driving in traffic jam to another , and once you arrived home , you find someone like you in his place !!

Drive license in this country it is not just about how you can move and stop your car , but it is also about where you are allowed to park or not , if i am the police man i will take it away from you as by parking in the wrong place , you proved you are not able to drive correctly in this country
.... and what signs or otherwise do you display to indicate your parking space is private?

Methinks, your replies are just exorcising your own personal demons and vendetta, and not wholly relevant here.
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Old 31.05.2015, 13:01
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Re: License plate stolen

I am wondering if the bloke has removed the number plate thinking the OP will have to contact him so he can have a go at him/her & tell them not to use his space in future.
Eggs can damage paintwork. If the bloke has crayons handy I would think he has kids so maybe they did the egg & crayon attack. Why on earth would anyone even think of giving him a bottle of wine?
Like most of the posters, I agree the OP was in the wrong but a message on the windscreen & identifying the car owner is a logical move, not causing theft & criminal damage to someone elses car.
Good luck to the neighbour who has to live next to the idiot. Parking spaces are not always clearly marked.

I parked right outside Office World in Acacias one day - in front of the door - only to find a parking fine on my windscreen. Somehow I was suppose to know that the parking sign say customer parking was not relevant one space further despite no markings on the floor or other signs to say it belonged to another company. The security agents sit there watching customers arrive - I had only been there about 3 minutes in the shop according ot the time on the fine - as there iis obviously some argument between the shops/companies there. Bloke on the other side of me also got a fine & hadn't realised either. He stood behind me while I yelled my head off in the shop (which I never do but this time I was angry due to the utterly crap markings). The manager must be used to it & barely grunted. Office World lost 2 customers.
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Old 31.05.2015, 18:08
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Re: License plate stolen

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I know that yellow lined parking spots are private. I parked there because I was led to believe that the parking spot was private (as in, belonging to the building), but reserved for visitors. As I said, it was a misunderstanding between me and my friend (who lives in the building).

On the other hand, my outdoor parking spot (which I am renting) is just marked with white color. So it seems that this color code is a bit ambiguous
In the public space (roads etc) yellow marks mean "off limits", perhaps with exception(s) (the yellow line ahead of pedestrian crossings has no exceptions, a taxi parking/waiting slot is off limits for everybody except for a taxi on duty, a bus lane is off limits for all traffic except public bus, etc). While this color code has transcended into private realms, there's no obligation to use it. So a private parking lot might be marked in yellow, or white, or green, or not at all, but as the markings ensure the renter and everybody else recognize the reserved spot(s), and also realize it's to not be used, they've become broadly accepted and used - simply because it makes sense.

In closing, I strongly disagree with what jesuisuntouriste says. In fact, private space, especially if it's reasonably easy identifiable as being private (for instance, by a "Randstein", i.e. that line of stones left and right of the tarmac when there's no sidewalk), need not be marked at all. By its very nature of being private such space is off limits for everybody except those explicitly authorized - you can even lawfully order officials including police (without a search warrant and absent immediate danger) off your property/rented space. The markings on private property, if any, simply serve to clarify that somebody specific may have an exclusive right to use a given area and thus that area must not be used by anybody unless explicitly authorized. So, aside from potentially getting mistakenly taken for something else (e.g. for a public parking lot as these are usually delineated by white lines, too), "your" white lines are just as well as yellow or blue ones.

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Theft is against the Kantonal issuing OCN/AMT SVN and probably more serious than theft from an individual.
Source?
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So, this could certainly be a grey area, if shit ever hits the fan, whilst driving without plate(s).
Nope, the insurance hinges on the vehicle, not on the plates or on the permit for it to be driven on the roads. For instance, Ordnungsbussenkatalog 701.2 clearly shows that not having plates doesn't mean there's no insurance:
"Überlassen eines Motorfahrrades ohne Kontrollschild oder ohne gültige Vignette bei bestehender Versicherung zum Gebrauch"
"Let have a moped with standing insurance but without license plates [..]"
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Old 31.05.2015, 18:43
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Re: License plate stolen

This thread is madness.

This guy STOLE your license plate and VANDALISED your property and people are saying to go and apologise with a gift.

Go back to the police and tell them to do their fricking job and stop worrying about crime statistics.
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  #39  
Old 31.05.2015, 18:47
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Re: License plate stolen

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This thread is madness.

This guy STOLE your license plate and VANDALISED your property and people are saying to go and apologise with a gift.

Go back to the police and tell them to do their fricking job and stop worrying about crime statistics.
Prove he did it.

I dare you.

Tom
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  #40  
Old 31.05.2015, 18:55
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Re: License plate stolen

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Prove he did it.
The OP had witness(es). See first post.
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