This thread comes from a point raised in a different post, and I thought it was time to start a thread on all its own on the subject.

As we all know Switzerland is made up of 3 language areas (ok 4, but we all know that the Romanish speakers don't really count for the rest of Switzerland, so we'll leave them out for the moment).

Switzerland is a country where German, French and Italian speakers all live together in perfect harmony, and everyone in fluent in all three languages... At least that's people in the rest of the world seem to believe - and it shows that the Swiss do a great job of marketing themselves!

But as we all know there is a lot of tension between the French and German part. The Italian part seems to have been forgotten in the whole "Röstigraben" argument, presumably because we don't care about them either, or probably because they figured out how things were going ages ago and started learning Swiss-German....

Even the term itself is German - is there a french term as well? I've never heard it? Sometimes it is translated as "potato grave" or "potato ditch", but I think a much more accurate translation would be "hash brown ditch". The term refers to the fact that there are big cultural differences between the German and French parts, but since the German part is bigger they call the shots when it comes to politics. Switzerland is often perceived for its Germanic traits in the rest of the world, and many aren't even aware than there are also french-speaking people living there too (oh, I forgot the Italians again).

So are there also differences between the Swiss-German-expat and the Swiss-French-expat? Do we also snipe at each other, or do we always politely disagree about each other's views of this country?

If you are a Swiss-French-expat do you feel downtrodden by the expat community? Or even a Swiss-french and are ticked off by the Swiss-German community? Obviously this is a little tounge-in-cheek, but let's see what comes out....

Someone in another post mentioned that foreigners in the French part get to vote at the Cantonal and local levels regardless of nationality as long as they have lived there 8 years. Interesting idea! I wish we had that in the German bit. Personally I think 8 years is also a long time - I believe that if you have a C permit you should be able to vote, since a C permit is a permanent residence permit.

Mark,

Can I please ask what a French-German-expat is? I know I am not one but what the hell do you mean?

Richard

What I mean by this was an expat living in the French speaking part of Switzerland. It was a typo - I meant to write a French-Swiss-expat. I really should read my posts before I post them - I'm going back to edit it now

Hi Mark,

Just to further your knowledge the French version is "Rideau des Röschti" and the real name is Sannegraben but the German speakers thought that sounded too French so changed it to be Röstigraben... Another interesting part is that although the correct term for Röstigraben is Rideau des Röschti you will see from the link below that even the French speakers don't know this...

http://www.bahn-bus-ch.de/sprachen/graben.html

I guess at this point I should link to an interesting article at Swissinfo:

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissin...08&sid=6407486

Here's a small snippet:

My guess is that using dialect really rubs up the Swiss-french even more since they learn high German in school. ANyway - for the rest of the details check the article.

Mark

I've actually only heard "barrière de rösti" which is probably more accurate than either graben or rideau.

The dynamics between the French and the Germans are pretty interesting in Switzerland. I am told that as recently as a few decades ago French was the language of business, which is why many older Swiss Germans tend to speak good French (younger ones don't).

When I asked a French Fribourger working in Geneva why there weren't any Swiss Germans working in our office, his response was "Ils ont peur de venir ici, comme nous avons peur d'aller là-bas" (they are afraid to come here, just as we are afraid to go there).

In Berne almost all the people I meet have never even been to Geneva, or have only passed through on the way to the airport, even though it's not much more than an hour's drive away. I find this odd, like meeting someone in Birmingham who's never been to London.

I think the expats in Switzerland tend to take this cue and stay to "their" part of Switzerland, unless they are consultants whose job naturally makes them travel across the country. There is also some sort of cultural selection that is different across the two sides. I think expats in the German side tend to be more "normal" whereas those in Geneva tend to move in strange and rarefied cliques (eg. UN clique, moneybags Eurotrash clique, etc. etc.) Some more contact between the two might be beneficial to both.

If any of you expats from the German side want to sign up on the forum at www.genevaonline.ch you will probably be a very welcome addition. Check it out, it is an interesting site - sign up and start participating in the forums, you don't need a ticket to Geneva for that.

Rohan

Wow - just checked out that site - 1734 members and 32 online right now. Pretty impressive considering that Geneva is a smaller city than Zurich! I didn't even know it is existed, but then again it does aim specifically at Geneva. Maybe the ex-pats in Geneva are better organised and open to meet others than the Zurich expats. After all it was frustration with the current expat offer that lead me to start this forum - but I wanted to make something for all of Switzerland than just one city. I guess most of our members are from Zurich, but I have no facts to base that on :-)

I'm particulaly interested to hear from expats who have lived in both cities and can give some comments not just as to how life varies there, but also how the expat communities are different.

Mark

Despite the name the site is set up to handle the rest of Switzerland, it just isn't much publicised. If you look at the member list there are about 20 from the German part of Switzerland (ok, not much in the grand scheme of things, but still...)

It's a user site, it's what the users make it. I've posted events in Zurich on there in the past. The interesting thing is that there is some sort of group / company behind it that is actually trying to custom - develop and evolve the site organisation, ie. it isn't just a simple bulletin board. The people behind it are from something called Sindy (www.sindy.ch) which has a non-trivial Eurotrash component. Partying is big on the agenda.

Perhaps I'll cross-post this discussion to the "General Noise" forum there, should be a few responses.

Rohan

Mark,

Perhaps thinking about the business/industry in and around the two cities might explain the attitude differences between the two sets of communities. Think about these points:

Zurich is a world banking centre. Banking implies confidential.
Zurich is an insurance world centre. Not dissimilar to above.
Zurich has few industries yeah okay chocolate and then?

Geneva is a world centre for NGOs.
Geneva is the home of the worlds most important physics centre and the true home of the world wide web...
Vevey is the HQ of Nestle a global manufacturer
Montreux is the home of many an Englishman and also one of the worlds most famous musical events.
Renens is the Swiss home of the worlds finest alcoholic drinks producer.

And that is just those I can think of. Clearly Geneva has people from a much wider background and therefore more varied interests or at least one would think so...

Native Zürchers are up their own arses. Even other Swiss-Germans agree.

Those not from the Swiss-German part dislike Swiss-Germans equally bar the Zürchers - whom they dislike more.

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, and I can add my own insight to the Röstigraben thread. I live in the bilingual canton of Fribourg, where my Swiss-German husband grew up. He has dealt with this issue since his sandbox days - he remembers often a time running into the house when the child's play wasn't fair and telling his mom that the neighbors were stupid because they didn't know how to talk.

I have been the recipient of poor service countless times due to people thinking I'm Swiss-German. It could be my looks. I guess certain Swiss-French shop assistants don't wait long enough to distinguish the American accent in my French before cutting me off and trying to find me their German-speaking colleagues. Then there were the Swiss-German shop assistants who were very put out to have to speak French with me back in the days before I spoke German. It's so hard to please everyone!

I get the impression that the Swiss-French are the most vocal about their intolerance of the Swiss-Germans, while the Swiss-Germans just acknowledge that they aren't liked and keep on with life instead of standing around bitching about it. I think it's because the Swiss-French, being a smaller group, feel more threatened. And because this group is small, the Swiss-Germans can just laugh them off.

I constantly hear that the Swiss-French find it too hard to speak German, much less Swiss-German. They don't realize that they are at a disadvantage if they continue letting the Swiss-Germans make all the effort of speaking to them in French.

I have also felt a bit of discrimination from residents of other Swiss cantons (sometimes other expats even!) just for living in Fribourg! How did I get caught up in this cantonal crap? Why do I feel the need to defend it when others are obviously provoking me? I'm just a tush-hog, I guess. That's my family jargon for a person who is easy to pick a fight with.

On the whole, I don't have any real animosity towards anyone at all - Zurich and Geneva are too far away for me to worry about. Our nearest "big city" neighbor is Bern, to which I often go by train. This is sometimes seen as outlandish by Swiss standards. A.) Because it's Bern! They are Protestant AS WELL AS German-speaking and B My God, it is afterall a 20-25 minute train ride (approximately the amount of time needed to travel one mile on jammed highways in Los Angeles).



From: Mark

So are there also differences between the Swiss-German-expat and the Swiss-French-expat? Do we also snipe at each other, or do we always politely disagree about each other's views of this country?

If you are a Swiss-French-expat do you feel downtrodden by the expat community? Or even a Swiss-french and are ticked off by the Swiss-German community? Obviously this is a little tounge-in-cheek, but let's see what comes out....

What on earth is "moneybags Eurotrash clique"? Is this a term from the UK about people here?

By the way, I am an expat living in the Swiss-French part but work in the Swiss-German part. I find the mix interesting, although I probably do not know all the pitfalls yet, as I have not been here long.

Culturally though, I must admit I feel more at home and even relieved sometimes when I arrive back in Romande Swiss every evening. Something to do with the French laisser faire mentality that has drifted through, at least in the canton of Neuchatel. (Note I do not fall into these clique catagories that have been devised for us!).

All of my wife’s family (Swiss French) only speak French, and so consequently they never seem to venture out of the French speaking part of Switzerland, I remember talking to them many years ago on this subject and at the time found it a little sad.
However, now that we have been living here for 18months we find ourselves in a similar predicament, weekends out are usually confined to the French part, weekend breaks short holidays are over the border in France.
Although my Wife is fluent in German, she still finds the mentality of the Swiss Germans difficult to get on with and I always have trouble with the language and navigating around towns and restaurants. At the end of the day we feel comfortable in this part of Switzerland.
Do you yourselves and friends see this great divide? Or is it just us, which really would be sad!

you mean to talk about this?
I think so; so I've merged your thread into there

I live in Lausanne, and the only time I've hear a Fench-Swiss native refer to the language divide, they referred to it as the Röstigraben. The French-Swiss also seem to lack their own word for the Mittleland - I asked a few local people about this and they could not think of one. There is obviously the same geographic region in the french part, and it cries out for a name, but they seem to either not name it, or if pushed they will call it the Mittleland - so now I have a category in my Photo organizer software called the "Vaudoise Mittleland" - which seems very inconsistent to me.

The Swiss-French certainly aren't keen on going to the German part, and I think that this is largely due to the language barrier that is certainly not close to being solved by trying to teach French kids high German. I also find it quite amusing that when I struggle to speak in French with strangers in the French-speaking part, they will occasionally try to switch to German to talk to me, which is certainly not a good idea in my case.

As for the expats moving from one region to the other, I travel a lot in both areas of the country (and occasionally even the Italian and Romansch parts, too) with minimal regard for what the local language is (and sometimes forgetting). In addition, I have a couple of expat friends in Zurich who love to visit here because they can understand French way better than they do German.

Sezegnin said that "I think expats in the German side tend to be more 'normal' whereas those in Geneva tend to move in strange and rarefied cliques", so what about us ex-pats in Lausanne, are we normal or strange?

Actually Lob, I just wanted to see if people tended to stick with what they know and feel comfortable with, for instance, where I live both Geneva and Zurich are about equidistance from me but for some reason I would never think of telling friends to fly into Zurich , it just seems automatic to tell them to come into Geneva. Even after 18 months here we still haven’t been up to Zurich (I know, my loss) or the surrounding area, but have visited loads of places in the French side even though for the same time invested we could explore the German side .

Saw it in a post -I know what yummy Rosti is, but where's the line please?

The Rösti line is an imaginary line separating French and German speaking areas of Switzerland.

Röschtigraben - according to Wikipedia...

Excellent - thank you