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Old 12.07.2015, 20:40
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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Hi

Talking as a law student and as someone who's father and brother are lawyers. Generally speaking people tend to do too much. Answering letters without thinking, "trying to do the right thing", talking, explaining themselves, often feeling like it is "their turn" to do something just because they got a letter or something. Often the correct way to handle things is to say or do nothing, at least in the beginning. You can remember that for pretty much every legal problem you might encounter in the future.

Filming in a public place generally speaking is never a personality rights violation and therefore never illegal. You can film everybody at every time on the streets for example. Most of the time it's what you do with the things you filmed, where/if you publish them, how well the person can be identified on the video, etc. that might pose a problem. This certainly wasn't illegal.

Someone filmed you, so what. If you hear nothing, there's nothing to do. Step by step. This can be ignored.


P.S.
A classic mistake that you could do that comes to mind right now is asking around in the neighbourhood if it was them who filmed you and then trying to explain yourself. All you would do with that was acknowledge that it was indeed you that was "dumping" something there. Not that that matters really because unless you're talking about it in front of multiple persons, there's no proof of you acknowledging it. Just saying...

All in all this is 100% irrelevant and to be ignored. I wouldn't even think about it for 5 seconds if I were in your situation.

Have a nice day.
Law student. Is that right.

Frankly, you got no clue as to this part of swiss law. Use forum search, you'll find plenty of threads pointing you to the relevant paragraphs and rulings.

Generally speaking, those filmed must be able to realize they're being filmed or taken a picture of. If they object and demand the material be deleted, the filmer/photographer must oblige. That means filming must happen in the open and from reasonably close distance. As a conclusion, installing a surveillance camera on public ground is illegal without special permit by the police - usually an agreement where you act in the police's stead, for instance to catch vandals after your house has been smeared half a dozen times.

And obviously you didn't even bother to read OP post, or else you'd have realised that OPs daughter saw the filmer, hence no need to go around asking.

Edit:
Pachyderm, if they refuse to stop and delete the material they got already you should feel free to call the police. Not sure, but filming them back to produce proof may be a good idea, ask the police while you call them.
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  #22  
Old 12.07.2015, 23:25
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

@ Longbyt
Yes and yes.


@ Pachyderm
I said that very generally speaking and in a really short way. Message-board style. It's all about balancing your (the one taking the photo or video) interests against the interests of someone who might be affected by it.

Why do you film something? What's your interest in it? What is the situation? What interest has the person that wants you to stop? Which is more important? There's a lot of things coming into play. When someone is going outside on public ground the general consensus is - by default - that this person has to be okay when someone takes a video of her or him in a "normal" fashion, otherwise panorama shots for example would be impossible if you had to ask everyone if they agree. Now if you take a close up of this person and then start an add-campaign with his face on A0-posters in the streets saying "The ugliest faces of Switzerland" and he's clearly identifiable.. well you have a problem.

There are certain areas that are considered more private than others (your apartment, your backyard, but also places like the inside of your car or a tent you use for the night, etc. are considered confidental sphere). A restaurant is not a public place in the sense that the property is privately owned, but it is open to (probably most) everyone. If the owner allows you to take a picture inside the restaurant (he could just make you leave the restaurant for whatever reason as he is the owner), why shouldn't it be allowed? Does anyone have a special interest in not having the picture taken? What you do with the picture is another thing entirely as I mentioned before.

That's talking about what you are doing with the picture and if it's allowed for you to have it. Another thing is how you take these pictures or films. Criminal law for example punishes things like coercion (art 181 stgb), unauthorized recording of conversations (art 179ter stgb), etc. So where it might be perfectly fine to "normally" film someone in a restaurant, it's not okay to force someone to accept being filmed for minutes from very close and therefore interrupting the meal even if they get told to stop. That's starting to sound like coercion.

The children thing is different again. If you're there every single day and the children notice you for example and get uneasy, well then it's no longer just about taking a picture of a school playground (which can be totally okay, even if there are children there since it too is a public place unless it's especially well shielded or something), it's also about child protection amongst other things . But what if he does it from his balcony with a telescope for example?

You realize it quickly gets complicated and it's all about the situation then and there. All I was saying was that if you're walking down the street and some granny just pulls out a camera while you are dumping trash.. well she's allowed to. Pretty much everywhere on public ground if they don't break any other law and just stand there and film.
People mix up a lot of different things. You gotta differentiate if it's okay to take the picture of what at what place, how to take the picture, and what to do with the picture. There might be multiple laws of interest, but you got the right feeling about the whole thing. In most cases where people think they have the right to make someone stop taking a picture, they're probably wrong. Most of the time it doesn't matter anyways what's legal or not as it's about manners and respect. Don't even get started on proving what's what in situations like that...
I hope I got my point across, it already got pretty long and frankly I don't want or even can go into great detail without preparation.


@ Urs Max
First of all let me say I like your passive-aggressive style, you must either be Swiss or very well integrated And oh yes, you called my bluff, I'm actually a butcher's son, let me know if you want an entrêcote or something. I'll hook you up!

On topic: You're talking about stationary surveillance systems. That's different from some random lady grabbing an Iphone and filming a bird in the park + a child behind that bird by accident.

I did read it, I just wanted to describe an example of what not to do.
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  #23  
Old 13.07.2015, 02:09
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

Thankyou to everyone who has answered my thread. Nobody has placed any further rubbish so that parts ok! My husband's friend has his own company and he works strange hours. Nothing really goes missing from our estate so that's why I just placed it there for him to collect.

Probably wasn't my wisest move to date. But you see my step dad died on thursday night and I just got the news on the friday, we are all upset and the children are obviously affected so that's why i didn't want anyone calling late to ours and disturbing the household. My eldest daughter was still up that late and she's just under seven, so I asked her to help me as a distraction at that time if you like. She's not been sleeping well due to grieving.

I won't do it again, and I won't worry anymore as the collecters will be able to say that there wasn't anything there if reported.....
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  #24  
Old 13.07.2015, 08:48
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

Really sorry to hear about your loss. I hope you have friends to help you and your family come to terms with the grief and new situation.
I can well understand that these things throw one off balance.
re - videoing and bags of stuff you put out - the guy studying law may (or may not) know the law but he doesn't seem to know what a shaky foundation an alien's life is built on here.
Permits extensions can be refused, jobs gone, flat rental agreement terminated - many of us are happy to just to keep our heads down and avoid queering our pitch by doing anything which could be vaguely considered as against the 'rules'..
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  #25  
Old 13.07.2015, 09:11
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

I always come to the English Forum firm of armchair lawyers each time I want a legal opinion on something. The advice is worth every penny you pay.

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Frankly, you got no clue as to this part of swiss law. Use forum search, you'll find plenty of threads pointing you to the relevant paragraphs and rulings.
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  #26  
Old 13.07.2015, 09:14
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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Just wait and if any one complains tell them the reason. Don't panic.

No no no. The first thing people do is panic. You just ruined that with your timely post. Cool heads...




.

Last edited by Jack of all trades.; 13.07.2015 at 09:15. Reason: Never good enough...never never....
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  #27  
Old 13.07.2015, 13:04
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

OP, I'm sorry to hear what initiated the situation. My condolences.

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First of all let me say I like your passive-aggressive style, you must either be Swiss or very well integrated
Ahhhh, the magic catch phrase. Except there's no passivity here to begin with.
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When someone is going outside on public ground the general consensus is - by default - that this person has to be okay when someone takes a video of her or him in a "normal" fashion, otherwise panorama shots for example would be impossible if you had to ask everyone if they agree.
1) BS.
2) You actually demonstrate that you're merely guessing. If you knew you wouldn't need to resort to deduction.

I only mention surveillance cameras later in that paragraph. Feel free to look up the meaning of "generally". Besides, your unqualified "Filming in a public place generally speaking is never a personality rights violation and therefore never illegal." is pretty much all-encompssing.

The reality is, you as a "normal" person or tourist don't have to ask in advance, but if even one of those filmed and identifiable demands the picture be deleted, that's it. The "Recht am eigenen Bild" (right on one's own picture) is part of your personal rights and overrides the filmers copyright on his film/picture, as confirmed by, among others, Federal Court ruling BGE 127 III 481 E.3a/aa, and again confirmed in BGE 136 III 401 E.5.2.1.

That right again was confirmed in BGE 138 II 346 E.8 against Google Streetview (though I'd agree that Google is not a normal person in the context of your post) where it was ruled that literally all persons and all car plate numbers have to be anonymized, as well as additonal measures taken around particularly sensitive areas such as court houses, hospitals, schools, women shelters, etc.

As for anything else, feel free to google any combination of EDÖB plus Filmen, Fotografieren, Datenschutz, Recht am eigenen Bild and/or Überwachungskamera.

Perhaps that'll keep you from guessing.
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  #28  
Old 13.07.2015, 13:08
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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Really sorry to hear about your loss. I hope you have friends to help you and your family come to terms with the grief and new situation.
I can well understand that these things throw one off balance.
re - videoing and bags of stuff you put out - the guy studying law may (or may not) know the law but he doesn't seem to know what a shaky foundation an alien's life is built on here.
Permits extensions can be refused, jobs gone, flat rental agreement terminated - many of us are happy to just to keep our heads down and avoid queering our pitch by doing anything which could be vaguely considered as against the 'rules'..
Longbyt said it better than I ever could. My condoleances- yes, bereavement does throw you off balance. Take care.
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Old 13.07.2015, 13:35
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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- many of us are happy to just to keep our heads down and avoid queering our pitch by doing anything which could be vaguely considered as against the 'rules'..
Not me. Not once I discovered that many of the "rules" that some people appealed to only existed written down inside their heads, and that most people are as fearful of the law as any of us. A polite, "oh, I didn't know. Can you show me where it is written down?" is usually sufficient.

Life has become so much smoother since my wife studied Swiss consumer and contract law.

I'm with zimThuet on one point - never feel you must respond to any communication or explain yourself, or indeed defend yourself. Always weigh the costs and benefits of responding/ignoring and ask yourself "what do I want to achieve".
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Old 13.07.2015, 14:16
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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Permits extensions can be refused, jobs gone, flat rental agreement terminated - many of us are happy to just to keep our heads down and avoid queering our pitch by doing anything which could be vaguely considered as against the 'rules'..
Not everyone. Keep our heads down for what, even when we don't/didn't do anything wrong? We pay taxes (probably more than an average Swiss family) and were granted those permits by the Swiss authorities.
This attitude is just wrong. Although I admit I'm very, very cautious....usually, I wouldn't make a tragedy if something which could be vaguely considered against the rules would happen. (I give more credit to the Swiss, in general)

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Old 13.07.2015, 14:47
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

This has turned into something that happens a lot. Someone has a concrete problem and then the "lawyer talk" begins because all of a sudden everyone knows exactly what's what: People talking about the law, thinking about situations that mostly are just theory at best anyways, mixing up things they heard with things they read in some rulings or who knows where, claiming to know everything with such a certainty it would make any lawyer feel ashamed...

I'm not a lawyer, I was always very vague, there are always exceptions. It's not black and white. In situations like these it doesn't even matter what the law says to a certain extent. I don't agree with what you said in a lot of points, but frankly I don't care to answer you. It simply takes too long and is too complicated. Your listing of BGEs tells me enough, you keep mixing stuff up.

In the end that doesn't matter to the OP does it. It's not about showing the world how great you are at knowing the law, it's about helping out the OP. I think this has been accomplished.

P.S. It's ridiculous to me to assume foreigners have to behave differently when it comes to the law, just to "stay under the radar".
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Old 13.07.2015, 16:29
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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Talking as a law student and as someone who's father and brother are lawyers.
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I'm not a lawyer, I was always very vague, there are always exceptions. It's not black and white. In situations like these it doesn't even matter what the law says to a certain extent. I don't agree with what you said in a lot of points, but frankly I don't care to answer you. It simply takes too long and is too complicated. Your listing of BGEs tells me enough, you keep mixing stuff up.

In the end that doesn't matter to the OP does it. It's not about showing the world how great you are at knowing the law, it's about helping out the OP. I think this has been accomplished.

P.S. It's ridiculous to me to assume foreigners have to behave differently when it comes to the law, just to "stay under the radar".
Not only have you no idea what you are waffling about, you even prove it!

My advice is stick with being a butcher...
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  #33  
Old 13.07.2015, 16:53
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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Not only have you no idea what you are waffling about, you even prove it!

My advice is stick with being a butcher...
Perhaps he is a law student that will start his study in September.
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  #34  
Old 13.07.2015, 17:34
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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In most cases where people think they have the right to make someone stop taking a picture, they're probably wrong. Most of the time it doesn't matter anyways what's legal or not as it's about manners and respect. Don't even get started on proving what's what in situations like that...
.
Perhaps you ought to explain that to a Swiss old gentleman who thought he was being photographed by my brother - when he came to visit us. It happened when we went hiking and my bro' was actually photographing the landscape, of course not the man (in the mountains, who and why would have precisely picked on him to make a photo? Gee...)....but he was up is his arms and demanded the photo to be deleted...my bro showed him the pictures that he took, and only then did the old man cool down....anyway, my brother would have deleted it for sure, if he would have accidentally caught that man in the picture...as he usually says "Don't mess up with the lunatics"...
So, this is Switzerland. Sometimes...Needless to add that the impression on my bro was very ahem, lasting.
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Old 13.07.2015, 17:43
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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Not only have you no idea what you are waffling about, you even prove it!

My advice is stick with being a butcher...
This has been an interesting conversation. There might be things lost in translation since English isn't my first language, I give you that... but as long as we have helpful comments like these, it's alright.

What the hell do I know, right? I suggested that the OP does absolutely nothing. It was me who said that, so you might as well call the police and have them break down your neighbour's door, search for that picture/film and destroy it. I've been told it says in a law somewhere that you can make them delete the picture they have of you, so that must be it. I give you a definite answer with total disregard for different situations, therefore I am probably right and smarter than most anyone. I know what I'm talking about. Trust me because X.

What I take away from this: Why even bother. I'm not sure what I was expecting here to be different than on other boards. This is the internet after all.
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  #36  
Old 13.07.2015, 17:47
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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Don't want to get too off-topic, but can this be true?

What if someone sat next to you in a restaurant and started to film you and your partner enjoying a meal out? You ask them to stop and they refuse. Or suppose you see someone (a non-parent) standing outside a school every day, filming the children at play?

These would be highly intimidating situations. I don't know Swiss law intimately but I would have thought there would be some law against such anti-social behaviour. In other words, the act of using your camera in public might be legal by default, but to do so in certain situations requires sensitivity and discretion. Refusing to stop in such situations must be bringing you close to breaking some law?
In the UK there would probably be a CCTV camera outside the school. The camera feed would be unencrypted and the security outfit that installs them would employ people who've done time in jail. Maybe even know pedophiles.

Yet people get worked up if somebody with a hand camera films the fence posts or does something equally disconnected.
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Old 13.07.2015, 18:12
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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Permits extensions can be refused, jobs gone, flat rental agreement terminated - many of us are happy to just to keep our heads down... against the 'rules'..
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Not everyone. Keep our heads down for what, even when we don't/didn't do anything wrong? We pay taxes (probably more than an average Swiss family) and were granted those permits by the Swiss authorities.
This attitude is just wrong.
I'm not a 'yes guy' and occasionally make myself unpopular by voicing my opinion. But, as NotAllThere says, it depends what you want to achieve - and how much risk you want to take of the situation backfiring.
I agree that not everyone 'keeps their heads down'. Just occasionally we get frantic posts on here from those who maybe wish they had done so.
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P.S. It's ridiculous to me to assume foreigners have to behave differently when it comes to the law, just to "stay under the radar".
To you it's ridiculous. You are, as I guessed from reading your first post, Swiss.

I live in a small block of flats. A guy came to my door asking about the general behaviour of Mr.S, a young single chap who lived here at the time. Is he an agreeable neighbour? Do we have any problems with him?
He'd applied for another flat and they were checking on him. I don't know if his application was successful but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been had I said that he had been seen to dump rubbish in the middle of the night...
More recently, near here, in a small block of owner occupied flats, one owner, who got on well with his neighbours, was selling his unit. He told them the name of the 'top of the list' person who wanted to buy it. The others knew little about this man, but his adult son, whom they did know, didn't seem to fit in very well with Swiss ideas of not boring holes in the wall after ten o'clock at night. He was turned down by the owner. Another applicant, also not very well-known to the others but one of whose adult offspring was friendly and helpful and fitted in well with Swiss ideas, had his offer accepted. Not fair? Not nice? But true.

I'm not trying to prove anything here, but it can sometimes be to ones own advantage to leave a positive impression.
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Old 13.07.2015, 18:32
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

@ Longbyt

I'm not saying there aren't people around that dislike foreigners just because they're foreigners for example. I completely understand what you are saying. Sometimes it's important to leave a good impression with someone, even though you might not like them for example.

I'm talking about the law being indifferent to what nationality you have when talking about almost everything (military service, voting rights, etc. excluded). If you own apartments you want to rent to someone, you can decide for yourself who you want and who you don't want in there. I understand that it might be more difficult just because you're a foreigner and the owner is a grumpy Swiss, but that's still treating everyone the same legally speaking. That's what I meant. Foreigners may have to be extra careful in certain situations, but not because the law treats them differently.

Now you've got to draw the line somewhere. You can't just not stand up for certaiun things because you fear someone disliking it. Once again it's all about evaluating how important something is to you and how hard you want to push the issue. Don't think you're alone in this just because you're a foreigner. Swiss lose their apartments, too. Sometimes for the dumbest reasons.
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Old 13.07.2015, 19:13
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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@ Longbyt] Don't think you're alone in this just because you're a foreigner.l
Are you still talking to me? I haven't been a foreigner here for over 46 years. I prefer the word 'alien' and on paper I'm Swiss.
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Old 13.07.2015, 19:42
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Re: Videoed whilst leaving out stuff for my friend to collect!!

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My advice is stick with being a butcher...
Even for being a butcher, he'd have to learn how to spell entrecôte correctly. He wrote it with ê instead of ô earlier in the thread #22.
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