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  #161  
Old 25.09.2015, 11:24
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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... yet, oddly, the same ironic gesture applied to women just doesn't work -- probably because far too many people use the term "lady" in everyday parlance to mean "woman" -- even unironically when the woman in question is acting in a far from ladylike manner: "Hey, lady, I was here first! Don't push in (cut in line)!" or "I just saw a lady steal some lipstick!"

You wouldn't use the word "gentleman" for a man in similar circumstances, would you?

Yeah, it wouldn't work too well those situations. I'm still ironing out the finer details of it's beneficial use. (wait, is a gentlemen allowed to iron?)

In the lady case, if I'm in the mood to cause a rukus, I usually address the female with Sir/Ser. Always amusing
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  #162  
Old 25.09.2015, 12:42
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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Fact is women want to be self supporting and independent, but we still kinda hope for men to take the initiative.
The words wanting your cake and eat it immediately come to mind.

The problem is that a lot of gentlemanly behaviour harks from chivalry which was an inherently chauvinistic philosophy, that saw women as slightly above children in the hierarchy, to be cared for and protected, but also as inferior and not worthy of the same rights as men.

Nowadays things have changed and, as a result, women want to be self supporting and independent, but conversely men are more likely to expect women to be self supporting and independent.

Bottom line is you can't have it both ways and men are increasingly rejecting this logic and/or don't know when it is appropriate to treat a woman in an 'old fashioned' sense and when it's offensive (or sexual harassment) to do so. There probably is a compromise middle ground, but it's going to take a while for men and women to reach it, I suspect.

Another theory, at least on the point of men taking the initiative, I read recently is that market forces may be playing a part in that the pool of 'desirable' men is shrinking.

The theory goes that there's been a significant drop in the last decade or so in men getting degrees (the article quoted that 34% more women than men will graduate this year from US colleges). This is where good-old-fashioned hypergamy kicks in, as women will still seek men who are college graduates over those who are not, and with that demographic shrinking, those men are finding it easier to find women with less effort. Supply and demand.

Either way, it makes things very complicated for many people.

Last edited by Aeneas; 25.09.2015 at 12:53.
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  #163  
Old 25.09.2015, 13:55
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

I agree with your point Aeneas.
I'd even add that you forgot the female robots.

Read a retweeted article recently about how women should be warned and afraid because with the new technology of adoring perfectly proportioned beautiful female robots, men would no longer need women. The article went on to mention that men would no longer have to put up with nagging and women who let themselves go etc. etc.

The only emotion that crossed my mind was deep sadness and bewilderment at the very hard feelings of the author towards women (and the retweeter for that matter).

Perhaps it's true..... As we become instruments and are objectified, men will no longer see our humanity. Men will not wish to grow old with us when we are wrinkled and fussy and tired, when our real bodies carry the marks of childbirth and scars of love.

We seem to be so responsible for the opinions and the desires of men.
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  #164  
Old 25.09.2015, 15:07
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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Perhaps it's true..... As we become instruments and are objectified, men will no longer see our humanity. Men will not wish to grow old with us when we are wrinkled and fussy and tired, when our real bodies carry the marks of childbirth and scars of love.

We seem to be so responsible for the opinions and the desires of men.
Don't put yourself and your sex down. You are and have never been instruments. The humanity will always be there, because men pretend that we have the tougher lives. It's no longer true, if it ever was. Forget the wars and hunting saber toothed tigers for a minute and you'll find that history has given men an easier deal, untied and copious amounts of freedom whilst women have tended to their offspring.
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  #165  
Old 25.09.2015, 15:11
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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I'd even add that you forgot the female robots.
The Beeb ran an article where some 'professor of Robot Ethics' argued that there should be a ban on sexbots in the future. TBH, what struck me is that the sex toy industry has been around for a very long time, principally catering to women - it seems a bit rich that we start to concern ourselves with sex toys just as it starts to look to cater to men.
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Perhaps it's true..... As we become instruments and are objectified, men will no longer see our humanity.
In fairness it cuts both ways. As per the article I read on the shrinking pool of 'desirable' men out there, it's clear that men have been objectified too, by women, for a very long time.
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Men will not wish to grow old with us when we are wrinkled and fussy and tired, when our real bodies carry the marks of childbirth and scars of love.
TBH, I think most men would be very happy to be able to grow old with a woman. Main fear many of us have is that we won't, because she'll leave us, with half of all we own, long before old age.
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  #166  
Old 25.09.2015, 15:30
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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Forget the wars and hunting saber toothed tigers for a minute and you'll find that history has given men an easier deal, untied and copious amounts of freedom whilst women have tended to their offspring.
Historically, that is at best debatable. We've had the longest uninterrupted period of peace (from major war) in history, so it's easy to dismiss the very real effects of war on men in the past. Even now, here in Switzerland, men have to do military service, if not community service and if not pay an extra whopping 6% or so tax until about 40. Women, bizarrely have no such social obligations whatsoever. How did that happen?

Even when discussing freedom, people tend to forget that in many countries men and women were democratically emancipated at the same time. Even in countries where men had the vote before women, full male emancipation often only preceded female emancipation by a few short years.

This is not to suggest women have or have had an easier deal, but to suggest that men have have had it easier with such confidence does give cause for me to more than raise an eyebrow and looking at modern romance through the prism of one gender having easier than another, is even more disconcerting, TBH.
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  #167  
Old 25.09.2015, 16:05
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

You know what, there are many, many gentlemen out there, just are there are many, many ladies.


There are also plenty of people who sadly fall into neither category due to their, I don't know... upbringing? Societal influences? DNA??? You don't have to have an XY chromosome to hold open a damn door. I spend a lot of time trogging around everywhere with a large pushchair (yep, I'm one of those...) and I would say it's a fairly even split as to whether it's men or women who kindly keep a door open for me. Or in the case of one hulking, tattooed gentleman today, dove back INTO Migros at SBB to make sure we didn't get battered by the door left a-swinging by the previous less-than-gentle man. Then a lady held the gate thing for us. Please don't just take from this the fact that I appear to be unable to work a door. I can. Honestly. Most of the time.


It's also a fairly even split as to who pushes in front and grumbles...


Maybe if everyone was "genteel" then it would all pay forward. Or something. That's something we could use more of generally, gender notwithstanding.


For the record, Mr Rufus is over six feet, loves running, martial arts and dancing. He's a pretty damn good cook and can put up a shelf/sort the car/do all the stuff I say I can't do because I don't want to/it's heavy/it's raining or dark. He's cute, too....

Last edited by RufusB; 25.09.2015 at 16:05. Reason: typo
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  #168  
Old 25.09.2015, 16:14
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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Perhaps it's true..... As we become instruments and are objectified, men will no longer see our humanity. Men will not wish to grow old with us when we are wrinkled and fussy and tired, when our real bodies carry the marks of childbirth and scars of love.

We seem to be so responsible for the opinions and the desires of men.


Nope. We're responsible for our own opinions and desires, just as fellas are responsible for their own. I know it's easy to forget, living here as we do, but it's not actually 1954, or any other time in history. We have a lot here and now. We have choices. We all make our own choices.


And we grow old with those who love us unconditionally. There is no other way. Anything else seems to be very cynical indeed. And desperately sad.
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  #169  
Old 25.09.2015, 16:21
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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And we grow old with those who love us unconditionally. There is no other way. Anything else seems to be very cynical indeed. And desperately sad.
Beautifully said Rufus

....those who unconditionally love us......
..do not hurt us.. I shall add
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  #170  
Old 25.09.2015, 18:36
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

I am not sure real unconditional love isn't just an illusion, or desireable ideal. Except parent/kid relationship.

I feel that humans are by nature conditioning creatures, it to some extent is a good thing, assures progress. I think acting respectfully to others, if it is called being a lady/gentlemen who cares, belongs to personal choice. The motives for it are of course probably diverse (kindness, trying to impress, etc.).

I'd say we all have some idea of decency, civility, concept of ethical behavior. It makes part of our standards, it influences the choice of people we keep around. Once the standards do not correspond to ours, self survival (or you can see it as restricting conditions of our choice) kicks in.

To speak of unconditional love assumes we will love somebody whether that person (still) shares or not our standards. I don't know anyone like that and I think it is good.

To assume one should love unconditionally probably refers to loyalty more than lack of restrictions in our choice, parametres, conditions. I am all for loyalty. But that is one of the priviledges which I view as earned.

Another thing is, having high standards in terms of treating people respectfully and with kindness (gentlemanly? ladylike?) is lately confused with weakness, in all that mismanaged gender equality war or what is often served to us as "gender quality" campaign. Kind women are not weak. Kind men are not weak. Offering help doesn't automatically mean we consider somebody weak. Stopping helping eachother (general act of kindness, holding doors, offering to carry a heavy load, etc.) isn't making anyone more equal. Kind people and their courage make the same kind of people gravitate towards them. It's a choice we make.
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  #171  
Old 25.09.2015, 19:27
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

I agree with you completely re kindness and compassion, MusicChick, however I disagree about the unconditional thing.



He loves me even when I'm a grumpy cow wearing baby-stained PJs and mad hair. I love him even though it's his fault I'm a grumpy cow wearing baby-stained PJs and mad hair...


The Rufus family hound loves everybody all the time. Especially if they might have a biscuit about their person...
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  #172  
Old 16.10.2015, 01:10
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

I'm sure that the OP is a nice kind lady...the problem is that the majority of females nowaways don't seem to be happy if they don't treat men like dirt...that's why gentlemen are disappearing.

You cannot expect to be respected if you don't show respect back...

I've had many experiences when, after being nice, polite and helpful to a girl for a few weeks or months...she stop answering my "Hi X, how are you today? Is everything ok?" messages.
Do you think it's fair? If you are not interested anymore in even talking with me (because I look ugly, because you found some cooler guy, etc...), a short explanation would suffice, but this "You don't even deserve a reply" attitude so common nowadays is really getting on my nerves, it's a lack of basic human decency and respect...
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Old 16.10.2015, 09:15
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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....Should we women in our late 20ies, early 30ies keep our hopes up? Where did all the gentlemen go or is there a new kinda gentlemen-like behaviour we don`t quite get yet? Fact is women want to be self supporting and independent, but we still kinda hope for men to take the initiative. Are REAL gentlemen extinct?
Gentlemen fly under the radar. They dont wave their flag (ego driven).

Perhaps you may want to consider socialising at different places. Avoid the "meat markets".

But mostly it comes down to your own attitiudes to life etc. thats what the gentlemen look for.

Good luck.
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Old 16.10.2015, 11:53
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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I'm sure that the OP is a nice kind lady...the problem is that the majority of females nowaways don't seem to be happy if they don't treat men like dirt...that's why gentlemen are disappearing.

You cannot expect to be respected if you don't show respect back...

I've had many experiences when, after being nice, polite and helpful to a girl for a few weeks or months...she stop answering my "Hi X, how are you today? Is everything ok?" messages.
Do you think it's fair? If you are not interested anymore in even talking with me (because I look ugly, because you found some cooler guy, etc...), a short explanation would suffice, but this "You don't even deserve a reply" attitude so common nowadays is really getting on my nerves, it's a lack of basic human decency and respect...

Maybe you're just creepy?
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Old 16.10.2015, 11:56
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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Maybe you're just creepy?

That's not a very Gentlemenly thing to say.
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  #176  
Old 16.10.2015, 12:07
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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That's not a very Gentlemenly thing to say.
I'm not a gentleman.
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  #177  
Old 16.10.2015, 12:13
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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I'm not a gentleman.

Well played!

I tip my hat to you kind sir!
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  #178  
Old 17.10.2015, 00:41
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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I'm sure that the OP is a nice kind lady...the problem is that the majority of females nowaways don't seem to be happy if they don't treat men like dirt...that's why gentlemen are disappearing.

You cannot expect to be respected if you don't show respect back...

I've had many experiences when, after being nice, polite and helpful to a girl for a few weeks or months...she stop answering my "Hi X, how are you today? Is everything ok?" messages.
Do you think it's fair? If you are not interested anymore in even talking with me (because I look ugly, because you found some cooler guy, etc...), a short explanation would suffice, but this "You don't even deserve a reply" attitude so common nowadays is really getting on my nerves, it's a lack of basic human decency and respect...
It's because she is not interested in you and you likely did not pick up on the signals, kept messaging her and she felt she had to ignore you to get you to stop. If a girl is comfortable around you then she will stay in contact even just as friends, if not then she won't. It's that simple.
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Old 17.10.2015, 04:57
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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TBH, what struck me is that the sex toy industry has been around for a very long time, principally catering to women.
I agree with your general point, but...

Sex toy industry principally cateringfor women???? We need to talk, I'll show you a whole new world....
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Old 17.10.2015, 11:07
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Re: Where did all the gentlemen go?

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I agree with your general point, but...

Sex toy industry principally cateringfor women???? We need to talk, I'll show you a whole new world....
Yes, I'd say so. Far more women than gay men out there.
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