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  #41  
Old 21.09.2015, 16:00
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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Nope, you read it wrong.

He was 21, the kid who wanted the beer was 16.

http://www.tio.ch/News/Svizzera/Cron...ulla-coscienza

"Secondo Alain, il litigio era nato perché il 21enne si era rifiutato di dare una birra ad un ragazzo minorenne. Il 16enne, con dei suoi amici, ha punito questo rifiuto pestando selvaggiamente Alain. "

"According to Alain, the argument started because the 21 year old refused to give a beer to a minor. The 16 year old, with his friends, punished this refusal by savagely beating Alain."

Tom
I missed Alain's age in the article, but he still was of drinking age and he acted under assumption that the kids were under 16. They used his refusal (which was correct under the assumption that they were under 16) as a reason to beat him up, rather than going the grown-up path and proving that they were 16 and then asking for alcohol.
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  #42  
Old 21.09.2015, 16:33
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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I missed Alain's age in the article, but he still was of drinking age and he acted under assumption that the kids were under 16. They used his refusal (which was correct under the assumption that they were under 16) as a reason to beat him up, rather than going the grown-up path and proving that they were 16 and then asking for alcohol.
Even if they proved they were 16 before asking they should have been able to take a "No".
Are we even discussing this?

Little beasts that got away with a crime, that's what they are. I wonder what's next, they seem like nice future adults...
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  #43  
Old 21.09.2015, 16:39
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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Are we even discussing this?
No, the point I was trying to make is that they didn't act as they should have and that it was wrong. That no matter what one does, one should always ask, and that asking carries the risk of receiving a no, which one should be able to accept without getting violent.
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  #44  
Old 21.09.2015, 16:44
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Re: Lad beaten and killed in zug!!

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Why are you posting this, was he a friend of yours?

English translation as per forum rules please.
erm, for the sake of finding witnesses?
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  #45  
Old 21.09.2015, 16:49
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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Even if they proved they were 16 before asking they should have been able to take a "No".
Are we even discussing this?

Little beasts that got away with a crime, that's what they are. I wonder what's next, they seem like nice future adults...
THE defence I accept is that they could not have known that the boy had mental problems

and to have with the Bible whomever has no guilt shall throw the first stone or the German saying Wer im Glashaus sitzt sollte nicht mit Steinen um sich werfen >><< Whomever sits in the glasshouse should not not throw around with stones
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  #46  
Old 21.09.2015, 17:17
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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THE defence I accept is that they could not have known that the boy had mental problems

[/I]
You mean there is any reason on earth for which somebody is allowed to beat someone up, obviously not to defend themselves? "Oh, OK, you're not mentally ill so you're good for some beating up, bullying etc etc".
Wolli, on which planet are you living?

It's not about throwing stones first, it's about basic principles here - which are not to be discussed. Beating up like severely injuring - the victim was brought into hospital is not to be discussed - there's no reason for that mate. Never, ever. Stop relativising, please!
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  #47  
Old 21.09.2015, 17:52
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

Sorry, the guy wasn't working at a Kiosk, who cares if the kids were 15 or 25, if you ask me for one of my beers in the street, I am almost certainly going to tell you to sod off and buy your own. The fact that they decided that he wasn't going to let them steal beer off him was a good enough reason to put him in hospital, means these lads should be locked up and off the streets.

Some people's opinions on this are really baffling.
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  #48  
Old 21.09.2015, 17:59
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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It's a horrible thing but you just never know what was going on with the young man. Was there any connection between the events even ? More to it?


Somebody mention Glasgow .. Yup i grew up there, received and dispensed many a hospital visit in my wild teenage years and still have some scars. But it didn't necessarily make Glasgow a bad place


It's not the violence that makes Glasgow a bad place...it's the weather!
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  #49  
Old 22.09.2015, 09:24
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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You mean there is any reason on earth for which somebody is allowed to beat someone up, obviously not to defend themselves? "Oh, OK, you're not mentally ill so you're good for some beating up, bullying etc etc".
Wolli, on which planet are you living?

It's not about throwing stones first, it's about basic principles here - which are not to be discussed. Beating up like severely injuring - the victim was brought into hospital is not to be discussed - there's no reason for that mate. Never, ever. Stop relativising, please!
NO NOT AT ALL. You are twisting things. The culprits are guilty of
- hurting somebody in a bad way
- risk to bring about his death
- trying to obtain merchandise not legal for them
> while their lawyer will say
- they could not know that the victim was likely to do suicide
- acted under the influence of group hysteria
- did not realize how serious the inflicted injuries were

I will stop using common sense when there no longer are expressions like ""scumbag"" used

Do you know the culprits and their lifes and their families ?
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  #50  
Old 22.09.2015, 09:33
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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Sorry, the guy wasn't working at a Kiosk, who cares if the kids were 15 or 25, if you ask me for one of my beers in the street, I am almost certainly going to tell you to sod off and buy your own. The fact that they decided that he wasn't going to let them steal beer off him was a good enough reason to put him in hospital, means these lads should be locked up and off the streets.

Some people's opinions on this are really baffling.
I occasionally refused to give out beer to people asking (demanding) but I stayed calm and polite. The victim in this case apparently also did do so

The culprits WILL be prosecuted and punished according to the law but not according to wishes of a wider public
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  #51  
Old 22.09.2015, 10:20
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

Wolli, I never suggested that they should be punished under anything the normal jurisdiction of the law. Unlike them, I am not a scumbag, prone to overreacting to small sleights.
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  #52  
Old 22.09.2015, 10:43
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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I missed Alain's age in the article, but he still was of drinking age and he acted under assumption that the kids were under 16.
I see no reason to think that that was the case, rather he simply didn't want to share his beer.

Also, it is only illegal to SELL someone a beer who is under 16, NOT to give it to them.

Tom
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  #53  
Old 22.09.2015, 10:55
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

I'm pretty sure giving alcohol to underage children is an offence Tom.
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Old 22.09.2015, 10:59
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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I'm pretty sure giving alcohol to underage children is an offence Tom.
Unless they have recently made such a law here, no it is not, as there is no drinking age limit here, only a purchasing age limit.

Tom
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Old 22.09.2015, 11:31
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

Unless you brewed it yourself, I presume you purchased it at some point in the chain.
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Old 22.09.2015, 11:34
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

Just so you don't end up in clink Tom, here's a translation of the actual law...

"Whoever offers or supplies alcoholic beverages to a child under the age of 16 years in a amount which is harmful to one's health is punished with imprisonment up to 3 years or a fine. Whoever sells or supplies spirits to a person under the age of 18 years is punished with a fine up to 10.000 CHF"
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  #57  
Old 22.09.2015, 11:34
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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I see no reason to think that that was the case, rather he simply didn't want to share his beer.

Also, it is only illegal to SELL someone a beer who is under 16, NOT to give it to them.

Tom
Non-endangering amounts of alcohol.

I know about the selling laws, Tom
I wouldn't give beer to under-16s either though, nor spirits to under-18s. I'd rather be selfish than risk endangering a kid's health. So there you have it.


And if you give under-16s alcohol (or other substances) in an amount which could endanger their health, it is indeed illegal to do so.



See here (Art. 136 Criminal Code):

Administering substances capable of causing injury to children
Any person who administers or makes available for consumption to children under the age of 16 alcoholic beverages or other substances in such quantities as may endanger their health is liable to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.

So, I repeat (), Alain was sticking to the law under the assumption that the kids were under 16.

Last edited by glowjupiter; 22.09.2015 at 11:54.
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Old 22.09.2015, 11:39
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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Unless you brewed it yourself, I presume you purchased it at some point in the chain.
Where you purchased the stuff does not matter. Simply giving it to underage people is NOT prohibited as long as it not harmful to their health
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  #59  
Old 22.09.2015, 11:41
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

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Where you purchased the stuff does not matter. Simply giving it to underage people is NOT prohibited
It can be, if there's a possibility of it endangering their life.

(Art. 136 Criminal Code):

Administering substances capable of causing injury to children
Any person who administers or makes available for consumption to children under the age of 16 alcoholic beverages or other substances in such quantities as may endanger their health is liable to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.

Last edited by glowjupiter; 22.09.2015 at 12:39. Reason: clarification
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  #60  
Old 22.09.2015, 12:33
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Re: Lad beaten and killed [himself, later] in zug!!

So, for example, if the alcohol was a contributory factor in them getting annoyed and beating someone up, I would say it probably would be punishable.
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