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Old 19.11.2015, 09:03
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Re: Child abuse in Canton SZ

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Somehow... there is more to this story, isn't there?
My feeling is that there's generally more to any story that gets posted here in the middle of the night, especially when the details seem to shift between one post and the next.

The PPD thread you linked to was nearly a year and a half ago though, so I would not draw any conclusions from that. Both the OP's work life and his home life may have changed drastically in that time.

-----------------------

I agree that - if that's what actually happened - a 3-year-old is too young to be left alone for an hour, even sleeping, while the parents are 30km away.

I also agree that - if that's what actually happened - a 3-year-old should not be threatened with violence if he cries.


However:

1a) There is no law in Switzerland that says children under a certain age cannot under any circumstances be left home alone.

1b) Among the older generation out here where I live, there is still a certain tolerance for the idea of leaving a baby who sleeps soundly at home, while you run to the bakery or post office. Even asking one of your neighbors to listen in on the monitor is optional.

So your approach to any authorities needs to acknowledge these attitudes (whether you personally agree with them or not) and make the case that the greater distance involved here, and a three-year-old's ability to get out of bed unaided, turn this situation into something different and more dangerous.


2) I think it's a rare parent who has never felt a momentary swell of anger or urge to "shake sense into" a child for something or other. Parents who verbalize that anger and frustration (to other adults) aren't the problem; parents who act it out are. So if these comments were made to you, away from the child's hearing, I would not be too worried and the authorities will probably not be worried either.
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  #22  
Old 19.11.2015, 09:10
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Re: Child abuse in Canton SZ

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Dear OP. Mind your own business.
Minding your own business is what allows paedophile rings to operate in your street "unknown", terrorist cells to move in underneath you and people to commit multiple murders and hide the bodies in the cellar.

I agree that good for nothing busy-bodies generally cause trouble but sometimes they can help.
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Old 19.11.2015, 09:19
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

1. There is a big difference between going 30km away or popping 5 minutes up the road to the baker.

2. If, God forbid, something awful did happen what would your reaction be knowing that somebody had a suspicion it would happen and all people could do was talk about it on a forum and get shot down. Wouldn't that make a great Daily Mail headline.
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Old 19.11.2015, 09:30
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

Even the soundest sleeping toddlers wake from time to time. While the chances of something happening (fire, for example) are slim, if the child did wake and finds that they are alone (and continue to be for what to a child would seem like forever) it would be a terrifying experience. Unless it were for an emergency, who would find it ok to take that chance?

Is this something that has happened several times? If you are truly concerned (and I would say I would be too) you could always use the tried and true swiss method of neighbourly intervention known as the "anonymous note". In it, you could kindly voice your concern, listing the reasons it is potentially harmful to the child. No threats, just letting the parent know that somebody is aware and concerned....

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Old 19.11.2015, 09:34
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

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1. There is a big difference between going 30km away or popping 5 minutes up the road to the baker.

2. If, God forbid, something awful did happen what would your reaction be knowing that somebody had a suspicion it would happen and all people could do was talk about it on a forum and get shot down. Wouldn't that make a great Daily Mail headline.
I agree. Leaving a three year old alone and being 30km away is not acceptable.
There are plenty of things a 3 year old can do that would cause them harm ( pull a cupboard over onto themselves for example, climb up to reach something and fall etc etc) and nobody would be there to do anything about it.
A five minute trip up the road to the baker's is a whole different kettle of fish from a one hour plus trip 30km away and a sleeping baby is totally different from a 3 year old.

If the OP is sure of his facts and truly thinks the child is in danger then I think he should voice his concerns to the child protection agency for his region. They can investigate and ascertain whether there s really an issue or not. They may find that there is absolutely nothing to be concerned about and the OP will be labelled as an interfering busy body but they may not and the OP will a helped a vulnerable child.
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Old 19.11.2015, 09:42
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

As others have pointed out there's probably more to the story than what is written here.

Leaving a 3-year old for a long time, without any adult keeping an eye on him/ her (or listening in on a monitor) is really not the done thing in my opinion. A few months ago, we put our boys to bed, then went downstairs to our neighbour to have a drink with them, after a lovely dinner. Our baby monitor was playing up that day, so OH and I took turns going up and down checking on our kids. We must have stayed for another 15 minutes after the last check and when we got back, our 3-year old was standing in the hallway crying his eyes out and shivering! He was scared and petrified! It took us 30 mins to comfort him and in the end we had to make up for it, and he got to sleep in our bedroom. For the following two weeks he was anxious when we were tucking him in, and asked us not to leave him alone!

Small kids left alone for long time can feel a lot of anxiety and pain.
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Old 19.11.2015, 09:50
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

Even the professionals get it wrong. Have a read:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...f-adopted-baby

Unless you are 100% sure. (Have evidence) Do not bring hell into somebody else's life. Neglect is easy to spot. Leave it to the professionals.
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Old 19.11.2015, 10:02
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

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Tom, Uno; just to be clear. You don't think a three year old being left alone inside is a problem? Or a police matter? I'd be very surprised if it is legal.
It's perfectly legal in Switzerland, so, no it's NOT a police matter!

Tom
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Old 19.11.2015, 10:03
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Re: Child abuse in Canton SZ

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Minding your own business is what allows paedophile rings to operate in your street "unknown", terrorist cells to move in underneath you and people to commit multiple murders and hide the bodies in the cellar.

I agree that good for nothing busy-bodies generally cause trouble but sometimes they can help.
I hope by now you know how these people operate. Who supports them. Under what surveillance they are. Etc...
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Old 19.11.2015, 10:23
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

I was at a wedding reception in zurich and a couple left their sleeping son (2yo) at home in Sarnen. I was shocked but they said he ALWAYS sleeps from 8-8. Still shocked that some people can just party like that.
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Old 19.11.2015, 10:33
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

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... Neglect is easy to spot. Leave it to the professionals.
A few names for you
Victoria Climbié
Baby P
Daniel Pelka
to show that some parents/ carers are quite good at manipulating the perception of the professionals.
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Old 19.11.2015, 11:05
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

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Neglect is easy to spot. Leave it to the professionals.
There are many, many cases of professionaly not spotting and not preventing many cases of nelect and child abuse, it is a regular feature in the UK media and that's only the cases serious enough to make it into the media.

While I have no idea what the situation is like in Switzerland, and agree that jumping to conclusions is not productive, if you have a genuine suspicion, all things considered, that neglect or abuse is happening then at the least you could report it in a way that questions is the behaviour you have seen is appropriate, rather than go in there accusatory and all guns blazing.
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  #33  
Old 19.11.2015, 11:25
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

There seems to be a lot of suggestion that "mind you own business" or "report it to the professionals" are the only options.

From the original post there probably isn't enough evidence to report officially.

But there may be enough evidence to warrent keeping an eye on it, this depends a lot on how much the OP actually understands the situation.

For me there is a responsibility in communities to look out for and police ourselves to a degree - not big brother or McCarthyism, but also not ignoring potential signs of problems.

The OP may have some idea whether the child is normally happy, well looked after, attending school, has friends, etc etc. If they don't then they probably aren't close enough to judge on one incident and are just having a knee-jerk reaction.
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Old 19.11.2015, 11:27
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

Did you ask why the child is left alone? How often? Did the parent try hard to find help and just never did? Is there something you could offer in actual help vs reporting them?

As far as what parents say when angry at their child, well I mean if I had a penny for every time I've heard a parent say they wish they could ebay their kids. 3 year olds can be tough, it's impossible to know the circumstances around the comment and many parents do still spank as well.

If the person in question trusts you enough to discuss these matters maybe they see you as a friend and you could in return offer help and advice?
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Old 19.11.2015, 12:37
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

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It's perfectly legal in Switzerland
Makes you wonder why people bother with child minders and babysitters. It's an unnecessary expense.
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Old 19.11.2015, 12:56
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

[QUOTE Minding your own business is what allows paedophile rings to operate in your street "unknown", terrorist cells to move in underneath you and people to commit multiple murders and hide the bodies in the cellar. [/QUOTE]

They "operate" because they are sick / Have mental issues, not because someone failed to do something.


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A few names for you
Victoria Climbié
Baby P
Daniel Pelka
to show that some parents/ carers are quite good at manipulating the perception of the professionals.
.

These were cases of shear, brutal, wanton abuse, not neglect.
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Old 19.11.2015, 13:05
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

We have had that argument with Swiss friends so often. It is indeed 'normal' to leave kids alone at home when sleeping here- normally with a neighbour keeping an ear though, just in case, but not always. Certainly was the case when I was little in the 50s- it was the norm. For us, as UK parents, it was just unbelievable- we talked about fire, the child being ill, etc- and they just sort of laughed and said, they always sleep soundly, and there is no problem.

Calling the police is just not the way to deal with this. I would talk to the person, invite her for coffee and try and offer help and support. And then go to your GP perhaps and ask for confidential advice on who to contact in the area- if you get the feeling something is really wrong here- but only if. Offer to listen out for the child if ever they are truly stuck again would be a real help.

We only once left the children alone to go to a party next door- and one of use went back every hour to ensure all was well. No problem until OH went back at 11pm and found both sitting on the stairs crying their eyes out that they had been abandonned - the 4 year old had been sick and the 6 year all had washed her- we felt soooooo bad, we never ever left them again (and as said, we were right next door) - never.

Last edited by Odile; 19.11.2015 at 13:44.
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Old 19.11.2015, 13:13
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

I think that perhaps if the parent/s are genuinely doing nothing wrong they won't object if social services check up.
In my opinion a child of 3 years old should not be left alone.
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Old 19.11.2015, 13:13
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

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[QUOTE Minding your own business is what allows paedophile rings to operate in your street "unknown", terrorist cells to move in underneath you and people to commit multiple murders and hide the bodies in the cellar.
They "operate" because they are sick / Have mental issues, not because someone failed to do something.


.

These were cases of shear, brutal, wanton abuse, not neglect.[/QUOTE]

Neglect is a form of abuse. As a teacher, with pastoral duties, I have sadly witnessed the crippling negative effect long term neglect can have upon a child. There may not have been "abuse" as you define it, but the consequences were the same. Utterly heartbreaking. And yes, that's even after outside help was sought, provided and the various individuals removed from their situation. And in several cases it was as simple as the first person to know not caring to speak up, let alone do something.
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Old 19.11.2015, 13:14
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Re: Child neglect in Canton SZ

Just to mention one danger of leaving a small child unsupervised. When our eldest was a toddler, she got into the kitchen and started playing with the oven hob controls, whilst I was in our bedroom working on the PC. I started to hear burning and smell smoke, ran into the kitchen to find a tea-towel which had been lying on the hob had caught fire and there were flames licking up the back of the hob and the adjacent wooden bread bin was starting to smolder. Meanwhile my daughter had gone back to playing with her Barbies or whatever. The fire was pretty quickly and easily extinguished and there was no other damage, but there were soot stains in the kitchen for a while afterwards.
What I'm trying to say is that an unsupervised child still has the possibility to do themselves and others harm, even if you are in close proximity but unattentive.
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