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  #41  
Old 07.01.2016, 15:05
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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I wonder if there are certain profiles that are more prone to that kind of fear and incident. For me personally, I know a lot of people in my own community. I see very little risk of that, and I don't think that is a big risks for others. Could this sentiment be more applicable to a much smaller segment of the population than you would think?
It's not "fear", it's part observation, part experience, part extrapolation.

It does not matter if it's a small segment of population, we have freedom and we should not create a society where we should be under total control just because "it only bother a minority of citizen". Especially when the trigger is some idiots vs the government, we should not be involved in that battle.
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  #42  
Old 07.01.2016, 15:13
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

I'm perfectly fine with the police stopping me at random, asking for papers, checking my things...I have nothing to hide. They'll only see regular everyday stuff in my car, and gives me and everyone around me a (some may say false?) sense of security that, at crazy times like these, police are checking and looking for anything that could be dangerous to the public. It could be me, it could be a maniac carrying guns or explosives, or someone carrying stolen goods. It's just a few minutes of my time and it doesn't hurt.
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  #43  
Old 07.01.2016, 15:16
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

I would agree to that hypothetical concept, although it is exaggerated. Effective law enforcement is not necessarily "total control". Also, how terrorism targets innocent civilians challenges the idea of our "non-involvement" in such conflicts. I know of number of violent crimes that could have been avoided, or brought to justice, with more effective information gathering on the part of law enforcement, and I would support it for that purpose.
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  #44  
Old 07.01.2016, 15:21
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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Yep and unmarked cars are always BMWs...
No, they aren't.

I was stopped by an unmarked car once, it was an Opel (and a very modified one, albeit discretely), but they were real cops, I got the fine to prove it.

Tom
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  #45  
Old 07.01.2016, 15:24
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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I would agree to that hypothetical concept, although it is exaggerated. Effective law enforcement is not necessarily "total control". Also, how terrorism targets innocent civilians challenges the idea of our "non-involvement" in such conflicts. I know of number of violent crimes that could have been avoided, or brought to justice, with more effective information gathering on the part of law enforcement, and I would support it for that purpose.
Well which is exactly what I mentioned initially. Effective.
Not like checking all cars available because that's the only way the police are told to do.
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  #46  
Old 07.01.2016, 15:32
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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I'm perfectly fine with the police stopping me at random, asking for papers, checking my things...I have nothing to hide. They'll only see regular everyday stuff in my car, and gives me and everyone around me a (some may say false?) sense of security that, at crazy times like these, police are checking and looking for anything that could be dangerous to the public. It could be me, it could be a maniac carrying guns or explosives, or someone carrying stolen goods. It's just a few minutes of my time and it doesn't hurt.
Say if tonight I'll be stopped and checked by the police I will also be fine with it.
That's not the point.
What I'm not fine with is:

1) People not understanding the problems properly and mixing things up (but it's life, most people are like that).
Hint: you're not the only one in here.

2)Accepting that police are being politically asked or influenced to check all citizen as a reaction to prevent terrorism attacks. Since in practice it is overstepping towards people's freedom and privacy.

Say for example I have some sex toys in my car*, it's legal and I have the freedom and the right not to be checked for no reasons. And I can be victim of the abuse, for example of the local village cop who's going to spread gossips or rumors or facts.

The entire process should be tolerated but not that easily and with safeguards.

On top of that, there should be more pro-activity by governments and more efficiency in preventing terrorism or any threats to innocent citizen. Not "allegedly pumping up confidence" so that the ignorantS and the old women** sleep more easily.
Think airport security for example.


*I don't
** I'm not discriminating old women
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  #47  
Old 07.01.2016, 15:36
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

It is not about terrorism, it is about burglaries. A much more common and prone problem in Switzerland.
http://www.polizeinews.ch/suche/?s=einbruch

So I was robbed.. What happens next?
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  #48  
Old 07.01.2016, 15:41
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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It is not about terrorism, it is about burglaries. A much more commone and prone problem in Switzerland.
Why not being proactive and much more organized law enforcement?
For example working WITH the innocent citizen instead of treating them like suspects because they only know how to use a rocket launcher to kill a fly?

Such as providing to volunteer citizen going away from their residence some "traps" temporarily set which would alert the police of any infraction or attempted robbery, and immediately reacting after?*

This is a poor example invented in 2 seconds.

*It's not entrapment, and even if, the law should be modified to act on criminals.
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  #49  
Old 07.01.2016, 15:59
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

I think privacy and freedom are somewhat overplayed.. We are nowhere in a million miles near being a "police state".
We still have freedom but we need to accept that we may be asked to submit to some occasional checks. We still have our privacy too, if the police find a dildo in my car and then go an tell all my neighbors then he broke the law, not me.

I do see the point but i think we are miles away from where the tinfoil hat people like to say we are..

If airport checks were replaced by only intelligence and profiling -- for the sake of not breaching anybody's privacy, would you still fly? Not sure i would.
Or you home was burgled 5 mins ago, the suspect just fled in a blue car.. But the police just around the corner are not allowed to stop all blue cars leaving your street because hey, they didn't all do it, they can't disrupt the freedom of all of them.. We'd be pretty annoyed at that.

We need a balance and I think in CH we have it pretty good.




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Say if tonight I'll be stopped and checked by the police I will also be fine with it.
That's not the point.
What I'm not fine with is:

1) People not understanding the problems properly and mixing things up (but it's life, most people are like that).
Hint: you're not the only one in here.

2)Accepting that police are being politically asked or influenced to check all citizen as a reaction to prevent terrorism attacks. Since in practice it is overstepping towards people's freedom and privacy.

Say for example I have some sex toys in my car*, it's legal and I have the freedom and the right not to be checked for no reasons. And I can be victim of the abuse, for example of the local village cop who's going to spread gossips or rumors or facts.

The entire process should be tolerated but not that easily and with safeguards.

On top of that, there should be more pro-activity by governments and more efficiency in preventing terrorism or any threats to innocent citizen. Not "allegedly pumping up confidence" so that the ignorantS and the old women** sleep more easily.
Think airport security for example.


*I don't
** I'm not discriminating old women
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  #50  
Old 07.01.2016, 16:03
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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The higher taxes must be good for something...
Zurich has the 3rd lowest taxes for someone earning normal expat money.
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  #51  
Old 07.01.2016, 16:03
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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Say for example I have some sex toys in my car*, it's legal and I have the freedom and the right not to be checked for no reasons. And I can be victim of the abuse, for example of the local village cop who's going to spread gossips or rumors or facts.

The entire process should be tolerated but not that easily and with safeguards.

On top of that, there should be more pro-activity by governments and more efficiency in preventing terrorism or any threats to innocent citizen. Not "allegedly pumping up confidence" so that the ignorantS and the old women** sleep more easily.
Think airport security for example.


*I don't
** I'm not discriminating old women
Seems like a lot of hypothetical "what ifs", none of which sound like it is as valuable as crime prevention. Sounds like a lot of it can be avoided by being clear when going out in public, which is somewhat expected of people, no?
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  #52  
Old 07.01.2016, 16:18
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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I think privacy and freedom are somewhat overplayed.. We are nowhere in a million miles near being a "police state".
We still have freedom but we need to accept that we may be asked to submit to some occasional checks. We still have our privacy too, if the police find a dildo in my car and then go an tell all my neighbors then he broke the law, not me.

I do see the point but i think we are miles away from where the tinfoil hat people like to say we are..

If airport checks were replaced by only intelligence and profiling -- for the sake of not breaching anybody's privacy, would you still fly? Not sure i would.
Or you home was burgled 5 mins ago, the suspect just fled in a blue car.. But the police just around the corner are not allowed to stop all blue cars leaving your street because hey, they didn't all do it, they can't disrupt the freedom of all of them.. We'd be pretty annoyed at that.

We need a balance and I think in CH we have it pretty good.
Well no one claimed the situation is currently critical or on the verge to be...

We are just one step closer, how tiny that step might appear is it nonetheless not insignificant.

And the example is that some citizen seems to accept without question or safeguards some reaction to serious incidents. The more intelligent situation would involve pro-activity, debate, moderation and creating of a proper safeguard system.

But of course you are caricaturing the situation (referring to tinfoil hat people and all that) which tends to indicate your little concerns about the topic.

As for the airport, again you are attempting to demolish my comment by going to the extreme. No one mentioned to ban any current airport security measures. But that they are putting in place the best comprise between annoyance/efficiency/privacy.

Finally, for the robbery, like I said numerous time, I am not against police checks. In your example, it's useful information (blue color vehicle) which could justify checks of that type of vehicle. As opposed to checking each cars randomly because they have not done that information gathering step.

They should be more efficient, more working with the population not against.

Maybe the current balance in CH is pretty good, I am not denying or specifically talking about Switzerland. But that balance should not be changed that easily without conditions just because there are some terrorists killing innocent people.

Politicians should put a system in place which uses law enforcement better than it is done currently.
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  #53  
Old 07.01.2016, 16:19
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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Why not being proactive and much more organized law enforcement?
For example working WITH the innocent citizen instead of treating them like suspects because they only know how to use a rocket launcher to kill a fly?
They do involve citizens, there's ads saying to call police and everything during the summer, it's effective and thieves are often caught because of that, but checks especially by the border guards are also very effective, they find b&e tools and stolen stuff quite often.
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Politicians should put a system in place which uses law enforcement better than it is done currently.
I don't think there's much to change, for sure marijuana decriminalization (if not legalization) and more harm reduction strategies would help, and maybe integrate small municipal polices into the cantonal police as a proximity police division for better allocation of resources.
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  #54  
Old 07.01.2016, 16:24
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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Seems like a lot of hypothetical "what ifs", none of which sound like it is as valuable as crime prevention. Sounds like a lot of it can be avoided by being clear when going out in public, which is somewhat expected of people, no?
Frankly your post is too vague for me to understand it or link it to the debate accurately.
The only think I understood and can comment is about "crime prevention".

What is "preventing crime" in this topic where all cars where checked *after* an alleged burglary?

And if you were only responding to my previous post, let's clarify:
Crime prevention measures should also been put in place, along with moderation, safeguards, and the obvious observation of the use of an intelligent approach by politicians.
As opposed to a smoke screen to provide a false sense of security to the masses and in an attempt to win votes.

And anyway, look at it yourself, in 2015, hundreds dead in a rich country capital, shot like little defenseless rabbits, and where some of the criminals are still running.
Do you call that "crime prevention" or security? Are you satisfied with the system in place, with the decisions made on daily basis by our fantastic governments?
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  #55  
Old 07.01.2016, 16:31
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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Frankly your post is too vague for me to understand it or link it to the debate accurately.
The only think I understood and can comment is about "crime prevention".

What is "preventing crime" in this topic where all cars where checked *after* an alleged burglary?

And if you were only responding to my previous post, let's clarify:
Crime prevention measures should also been put in place, along with moderation, safeguards, and the obvious observation of the use of an intelligent approach by politicians.
As opposed to a smoke screen to provide a false sense of security to the masses and in an attempt to win votes.

And anyway, look at it yourself, in 2015, hundreds dead in a rich country capital, shot like little defenseless rabbits, and where some of the criminals are still running.
Do you call that "crime prevention" or security? Are you satisfied with the system in place, with the decisions made on daily basis by our fantastic governments?
I think we just have differing views here .. The bit in bold for example, I could view this another way.. The people who committed this crime were well known to the police and intel services.. But because of freedom and liberty and human rights, they were out walking the streets killing people.

A little bit less freedom and it just might not have happened.

We'll never know
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  #56  
Old 07.01.2016, 16:32
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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Do you call that "crime prevention" or security? Are you satisfied with the system in place, with the decisions made on daily basis by our fantastic governments?
In Switzerland, somewhat. In the US, I'd say no.

I've personally seen a lot of idiotic actions by law enforcement in the US, leading me to think they need to reinvent their engagement processes. But in Switzerland, I think there is plenty of room to step up law enforcement and crime prevention activities, as crime rises.
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  #57  
Old 07.01.2016, 16:35
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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They do involve citizens, there's ads saying to call police and everything during the summer, it's effective and thieves are often caught because of that, but checks especially by the border guards are also very effective, they find b&e tools and stolen stuff quite often.

I don't think there's much to change, for sure marijuana decriminalization (if not legalization) and more harm reduction strategies would help, and maybe integrate small municipal polices into the cantonal police as a proximity police division for better allocation of resources.
It's effective?
Well I will use a poor example found in a few seconds and only about "geneva area":
http://www.tdg.ch/geneve/En-juillet-...story/19197686
Translate it yourself but after all only the graph matters-

I don't see any significant drops in burglary according to these statistics.

So maybe we don't have the same expectations or definition of "effectiveness"*.

* and I'm trying to be honest with the statistics, I doubt it's due to any raise of newly created properties which could explain "more houses more likelihood of burglary".
And I doubt these figures are the only exception in Switzerland.

PS: Swiss authorities are providing official stats, see here, for 2012 only:
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/f...02/dos/04.html.
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  #58  
Old 07.01.2016, 16:35
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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What is "preventing crime" in this topic where all cars where checked *after* an alleged burglary?

And if you were only responding to my previous post, let's clarify:
Crime prevention measures should also been put in place, along with moderation, safeguards, and the obvious observation of the use of an intelligent approach by politicians.
As opposed to a smoke screen to provide a false sense of security to the masses and in an attempt to win votes.
Burglaries happen in strings, sometimes they are foreigners and they can be invited to leave switzerland after the (eventual) prison time. Each home invasion can be dangerous if the owner is home he can risk his life. It is prevention and also has an effective punitive aspect, especially the risk of being expelled.

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And anyway, look at it yourself, in 2015, hundreds dead in a rich country capital, shot like little defenseless rabbits, and where some of the criminals are still running.
Do you call that "crime prevention" or security? Are you satisfied with the system in place, with the decisions made on daily basis by our fantastic governments?
That's not "our" government and a completely different situation/country/history. Also not convinced it's a security system only problem.
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Old 07.01.2016, 16:37
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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I think we just have differing views here .. The bit in bold for example, I could view this another way.. The people who committed this crime were well known to the police and intel services.. But because of freedom and liberty and human rights, they were out walking the streets killing people.

A little bit less freedom and it just might not have happened.

We'll never know
Very true, I can only agree.

But we can observe that whatever was done failed miserably, before, during and after these incidents.
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Old 07.01.2016, 16:47
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Re: Are the cops allowed to search my trunk?

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It's effective?
Well I will use a poor example found in a few seconds and only about "geneva area":
http://www.tdg.ch/geneve/En-juillet-...story/19197686
Translate it yourself but after all only the graph matters-

I don't see any significant drops in burglary according to these statistics.
In the graph I actually see slightly less burglaries, but anyway not an increase, this is a win in my book considering the economy is bad especially across the borders and the increase of population. Zero crime is impossible. Anyway I'm not saying more can't be done, but for prevention of burglaries you need alarm systems, shock lights, street cameras, a safe for the valuables, so it depends how much people want to spend for security (privately and politically). And even then it's still gonna be recorded as burglary even though only a window was broken.
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