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Old 11.04.2016, 21:52
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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If only Odile could contribute anything that addresses what I am trying to say instead of attacking me as a person a few pages back and serial-groaning throughout. One can only wish...

Sometimes it's so obvious, there is no need to explain. You send me red rep and dare complain about a few groans! You seem to have a real bee, many bees in fact, in your bonnet about Islam and just want to stir. I wonder as an expat whether you are perfectly integrated in Swiss society. I believe it is possible to be fully integrated and yet not become a carbon copy - as is the case in the UK, which you despise so much. I lived for 34 years in the most multicultural town there- where most immigrant were fully integrated and yet kept their religious beliefs, culture and traditions too. It is NOT necessary to become clones - as my OH's family felt they had to do in the 40s- and deny their background and history.

These boys are just kids, teenagers- and the way they were dealt with is just so un-helpful, in the long term.
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Old 11.04.2016, 22:01
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

What I fail to understand is that we all see the problems of integration as well as the changes that this community is demanding of Western countries. This is not even limited to certain countries, this is a problem seen in every Western country where there is a large muslim community who are not (yet) the majority.

And nobody seems to have an answer. We argue about various causes, whether it's social or it's religious, whether we can do more to integrate them or if they should do more to integrate themselves etc
But it always comes back to the point: We have a massive problem with this community and nobody has the answer!

Yet despite these problems and the lack of solutions, if someone was to state ''I see we're having problems integrating these members of society, perhaps we should reconsider immigration policy from muslim majority countries'' they would be shouted down as a racist or a right winger for simply stating the truth. Why?
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Old 11.04.2016, 22:04
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Sometimes it's so bovious, there is no need to explain. You send me red rep and dare complain about a few groans! You seem to have a real bee, many bees in fact, in your bonnet about Islam and just want to stir. I wonder as an expat whether you are perfectly integrated in Swiss society. I believe it is possible to be fully integrated and yet not become a carbon copy - as is the case in the UK, which you despise so much. I lived for 34 years in the most multicultural town there- where most immigrant were fully integrated and yet kept their religious beliefs, culture and traditions too. It is NOT necessary to become clones - as my OH's family felt they had to do in the 40s- and deny their background and history.

These boys are just kids- and the way they were dealt with is just so un-helpful, in the long term.
Thanks for answering. I respect your opinions and don't deny any of your experiences. For me, it's not about being clones actually. It's about not being so selfish that you make others accommodate for your newly-found beliefs. This country seems to have been nice to their family so far and they turn around and make demands that are incompatible with that very same country. I really don't agree with that.

I stand by the point I made about the UK. Bending over backwards to satisfy the whims of a vocal minority eventually leads to this: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...ity-sharia-law. Good-intentioned people like you don't seem to learn from the experience of other countries (e.g. UK, Belgium, France) or learn from history in general it seems.

Anyway, since I am a newbie here, I am not able to send you red reps. I don't know what you are talking about. I have not even groaned at you.
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Old 11.04.2016, 22:05
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

TBH I feel the pressures put upon the systems, like the education system- in some communities where there is a large % of expats who do not integrate and live parralel lives without any interraction with the locals and refuse to learn the language- are much greater than 2 rebellious teenagers.

Have you EVER LIVED in the UK, for a significant period of time? And where? Your experiences in Bradford or Leicester would have been totally different- and even more so, if you lived in Devon or Norfolk- Chelsea or Peckham.

Not sure if you are Swiss, like me- Valaisan even- do you really feel the Muslims in Monthey or Sierre, or anywhere in the Valais, are putting huge pressure on Valaisan Society? Truly? Where? I mean, I go to the Valais a lot, we've got many friends there- and I can't think I've ever met many Muslims- really. Plenty of loud hooray Henry's flashing their money in Verbier and Crans though- and they can be really annoying.
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Old 11.04.2016, 22:11
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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TBH I feel the pressures put upon the systems, like the education system- in some communities where there is a large % of expats who do not integrate and live parralel lives without any interraction with the locals and refuse to learn the language- are much greater than 2 rebellious teenagers.

Have you EVER LIVED in the UK, for a significant period of time? Adn where? Your experiences in Bradford or Leicester would have been totally different- and even more so, if you lived in Devon or Norfolk- Chelsea or Peckham.
So refusal to learn the language is bad but refusing to follow the local customs is ok? Where do you draw the line?

Yes, 4 years. Lived in South Ken, London but I've travelled the land a lot. I am fond of the place, hence why I keep checking its news. It's not been pleasant reading at times.

There are no problems with Muslims in Valais and it would be great if it stayed like that. We don't need a failed multiculturalism experiment like in Germany.
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Old 11.04.2016, 22:15
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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So refusal to learn the language is bad but refusing to follow the local customs is ok? Where do you draw the line?

Yes, 4 years. Lived in South Ken, London but I've travelled the land a lot. I am fond of the place, hence why I keep checking its news. It's not been pleasant reading at times.

There are no problems with Muslims in Valais and it would be great if it stayed like that. We don't need a failed multiculturalism experiment like in Germany.
Exactly- where do you draw the lines. A couple of rebellious teenagers refuse to toe the line- or 1000s of grown-up adults living parralel lives and making more and more demands on Swiss society to change to accommodate them, because they are 'so special'? Which have more influence on societal changes?

Which local customs? Enforced fondue and horse steak twice a year. Skiing proficiency? Yoddling? Pray tell.

I canpt help but feel that only insecure and igonorant people feel threatened by differences. Why? Many of the people in Valais or in the rural Jura where I live are terrified of Muslims- and yet practically never met one, never mind get to know one- and this kind of stirring in the Press, blowing stuff like this out of all proportion- is what fuels this. Where do I draw the line? Enforced marriage, FGM, girls being prevented to continue their education and the like. Stick to what is important- and tolerate what is superficial and irrelevant in the scales of life- and talk, discuss, persuade. Coming down on them like a ton of bricks will only serve to further alienate them imho. And yes, having mentionned Oskar before- I am concerned that someone with his views is charged with teaching history to teenagers. I have several friends who are teachers in sec schools in Valais who are very concerned about this too.

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Old 11.04.2016, 22:26
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Exactly- where do you draw the lines. A couple of rebellious teenagers refuse to toe the line- or 1000s of grown-up adults living parralel lives and making more and more demands on Swiss society to change to accommodate them, because they are 'so special'? Which have more influence on societal changes?
Societal tidal change never occurs suddenly. It starts with small steps and grows gradually. There is a reason why there exists a wise expression like: 'nip in the bud.' The core idea is to stop something before it escalates into something uncontrollable. Rome was not built in a day but it was nearly burnt down in a single night.
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Old 11.04.2016, 22:29
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Which local customs? Enforced fondue and horse steak twice a year. Skiing proficiency? Yoddling? Pray tell.

I canpt help but feel that only insecure and igonorant people feel threatened by differences. Why? Many of the people in Valais or in the rural Jura where I live are terrified of Muslims- and yet practically never met one, never mind get to know one- and this kind of stirring in the Press, blowing stuff like this out of all proportion- is what fuels this. Where do I draw the line? Enforced marriage, FGM, girls being prevented to continue their education and the like. Stick to what is important- and tolerate what is superficial and irrelevant in the scales of life- and talk, discuss, persuade. Coming down on them like a ton of bricks will only serve to further alienate them imho. And yes, having mentionned Oskar before- I am concerned that someone with his views is charged with teaching history to teenagers. I have several friends who are teachers in sec schools in Valais who are very concerned about this too.
Shaking hands with a female teacher...

I grew up among muslims so yeah there's that.
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Old 11.04.2016, 22:32
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

Why not 'nip in the bud' the other pressures and changes on society mentionned above<. why pick on a couple of Muslim teenagers going 'through a phase' and not bother about the anglo-saxonisation of the country- which is having a true impact?

I agree that about from Crans and Verbier- this is not much of a problem in Valais- but is certainly having a strong influence in Zug, Zurich and Geneva, and aall along the Rivieras around.

Your concerns are totally out of proportion with the reality on the ground.

I ws a female teacher for over 30 years- respect has nothing to do with shaking hands, not curtsy. I was highly respected I am pleased to say- for very different reasons.

Small mindedness and 'esprit de clocher' is what made me move to the UK- and probably what will make me go back there at some point. The paranoia about Muslims is so incredibly ridiculous and, as said, totally our of proportion with the reality on the ground- whipped up by the UDC/SVP. Pathetic. Leave you to it.
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Old 11.04.2016, 22:37
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Why not 'nip in the bud' the other pressures and changes on society mentionned above<. why pick on a couple of Muslim teenagers going 'through a phase' and not bother about the anglo-saxonisation of the country- which is having a true impact?

I agree that about from Crans and Verbier- this is not much of a problem in Valais- but is certainly having a strong influence in Zug, Zurich and Geneva, and aall along the Rivieras around.

Your concerns are totally out of proportion with the reality on the ground.
Promoting bias in behaviour based on gender is a step backwards according to me while anglo-saxonisation is more of a step forwards. Hope that alleviates your concerns.

You do seem respectable but you walk around with rose-tinted glasses unfortunately.

Not so ridiculous if you hear the recent news about conflicts all over the world. Radical Islam is a non-negligible threat. Quite why you seem to dismiss this danger so out of hand is mind-boggling. I guess you might change your tune when someone you know becomes a victim of Islam.
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Old 11.04.2016, 22:53
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

Where on earth have I denied concerns about radical islam or Isis, or Islamism?

Au contraire- what I do decry is the wholesale paranoia about Islam both here and in France. Let's work out what must be condemned, like enforced marriage, FGM, stopping opportunities for girls and women - etc- and not go wild and crazy and paraoid because 2 teenagers refused to shake the hand of a teacher. Proportions- real risk assessments. Stop being paranoid about differences.

I am an anglo-saxon by adoption- lived all my adult life in the UK- married to a Brit, with British family, daughters, grandchildren, friends, colleagues, etc. We speak English at home,watch the Beeb, read in English- go to England 4 times a year where we have a lovely appartment in a lovely market town- so I am not anti anglo-saxon. But anglosaxonisation via self-important expats is for me not progress. I see no reasons why we should expect immigrants to integrate, and expats to live parralel lives and make more and more demands on our systems. Really.
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Old 11.04.2016, 23:06
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Yes, 4 years. Lived in South Ken, London but I've travelled the land a lot. I am fond of the place, hence why I keep checking its news. It's not been pleasant reading at times.


It depends upon what you are reading and where you're reading it from, surely? And South Kensington is quite a bubble to live in - what land did you also travel to make these sweeping statements?



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Societal tidal change never occurs suddenly. It starts with small steps and grows gradually. There is a reason why there exists a wise expression like: 'nip in the bud.' The core idea is to stop something before it escalates into something uncontrollable. Rome was not built in a day but it was nearly burnt down in a single night.

Yes, it can.

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Promoting bias in behaviour based on gender is a step backwards according to me while anglo-saxonisation is more of a step forwards. Hope that alleviates your concerns.

You do seem respectable but you walk around with rose-tinted glasses unfortunately.

Not so ridiculous if you hear the recent news about conflicts all over the world. Radical Islam is a non-negligible threat. Quite why you seem to dismiss this danger so out of hand is mind-boggling. I guess you might change your tune when someone you know becomes a victim of Islam.

While I respect your right to say what you believe - I have to ask, why are you so intent on skewing the words of others? World-wide conflicts are not recent news, sadly. And I've not "heard" anyone here dismiss anything out of hand. What is not happening is a wholesale agreement with you without question, without pause.



This whole thread began with a discussion about respect, customs, habits in a school community and you do seem intent on making it something a lot more.
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Old 12.04.2016, 10:16
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

Sorry Odile, but this is completely off-topic. The thread was about Muslim youths in Switzerland.

The problems of integration are numerous and start with a portion of the community making demands such as these (not touching women).
Also:
not eating pork in the school canteen
wearing the veil in school
not doing swimming classes (girls)
etc.
What this thread *is* about is discussing how appropriate it is in a European culture for aspects of Islam to encroach on daily life.

I for one find it incongruous that my children had to eat Halal meat because the company providing food for the canteen couldn't supply two parallel kinds of meal (logistics). So the minority (today) decided for the majority.

I could go on. A woman stopped behind the wheel in full veil because the police thought it was dangerous - she had no lateral vision. So her husband and some friends went and rioted outside the police station.

My local supermarket (Intermarché) in Provence now has a tiny cabinet of non-Halal meat and a huge aisle of Halal products on offer. Supply to meet the demand, you say? OK, no more pâté.

Girls as young as 9 in burqua going to the mosque ...

Who was it that said "one man's liberty ends where that of another begins"? I do not consider myself Islamophobe. I have Muslim friends that are perfectly well-integrated. But I am very concerned ...

Read that Charlie Hebdo piece again. It was to-the-point and subtle, but quite correct in its analysis of a pernicious threat to our society.
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Old 12.04.2016, 10:21
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

What this thread is good for, is really pulling the community together.
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Old 12.04.2016, 10:25
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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It depends upon what you are reading and where you're reading it from, surely? And South Kensington is quite a bubble to live in - what land did you also travel to make these sweeping statements?
Yes, it can.
While I respect your right to say what you believe - I have to ask, why are you so intent on skewing the words of others? World-wide conflicts are not recent news, sadly. And I've not "heard" anyone here dismiss anything out of hand. What is not happening is a wholesale agreement with you without question, without pause.



This whole thread began with a discussion about respect, customs, habits in a school community and you do seem intent on making it something a lot more.
Perhaps it is because some are able to detect the "edge of the wedge". It is the small things that begin the landslide down the slippery slope.

Like now, in Germany, the majority in military service are no longer to be served Pork, because it offends the Muslims. (for links anyone interested can search back copies of newspapers themselves)

And today in 20 Minuten I see Germany is banning advertising that uses models in a "sexist" way .... the booby females draped on cars, bare legs to advertise clothing, anything with a sexual allure in any adverts.
I wonder how underwear is going to be advertised in the future? Probably it wont be - too sexy - may encourage another wave of rapes?

This latest move is in response to the Köln attacks - so sexual allure is no longer acceptable. Our Muslim brethren cannot control their bodies.

I guess next to go are bikinis at public swimming pools? And maybe a uniform dress for schools including head coverings? Perhaps separation of boys and girls into different schools?

Oh, it will continue on, for sure. As I said ...... "Thin edge of the Wedge" has only just begun.
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Old 12.04.2016, 10:30
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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I guess next to go are bikinis at public swimming pools? And maybe a uniform dress for schools including head coverings? Perhaps separation of boys and girls into different schools?
They've already created separate female and male swimming times at one pool with slides in Germany etc so unless I went there at a specific time, I would no longer be able to use the pool with my wife and kids.
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Old 12.04.2016, 10:43
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

Interesting arguments, Smoky. I know the Swiss would agree with you.

I, for one, applaud the tendency for women to adapt a slightly more conservative approach in dressing as opposed to going out scantily-clad. To be clear, I'm NOT talking about covering arms, legs, neck or the head but definitely of being more aware of the amount of breast/torso/buttocks showing and the possible consequences of it.

Having said that, if a male student wouldn't shake hands with me because of my gender, I think I should have the right to tell him I could never award him a 6 because that would mean he's perfect, although in reality, none of us are, and therefore would be misleading.
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  #418  
Old 12.04.2016, 10:45
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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I, for one, applaud the tendency for women to adapt a slightly more conservative approach in dressing as opposed to going out scantily-clad. To be clear, I'm NOT talking about covering arms, legs, neck or the head but definitely of being more aware of the amount of breast/torso/buttocks showing and the possible consequences of it.
Including at the Swimming pool or badi?
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Old 12.04.2016, 10:50
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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I canpt help but feel that only insecure and igonorant people feel threatened by differences. Why?
Yes, why?

You are the one who seems threatened by people disagreeing with you on an Interent forum.

If you preach tolerance you have to practice it, even when it hurts.
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Old 12.04.2016, 10:51
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Including at the Swimming pool or badi?
Fair question. Swimming/bathing areas are restricted and therefore bikinis should be allowed, as well as sharing the premises with both genders. My opinion, of course.
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