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Old 12.04.2016, 13:04
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Most of the Paris and Brussels terrorists have been 'Muslim' for all of 5 minutes, prior to that many were serving stretches for burglary, drug dealing, fraud etc.. One of the ringleaders (Saleh Abdelsalam) was even running a bar with his brother just a few months before the Paris attacks. The point is, ignorance of their religion, lack of purpose and manipulation by criminals is what seems to drive much of the terrorism we have seen in Europe.

There was an excellent BBC radio documentary on the tactics used by ISIS recruiters, and basically it is to find the weakest, most vulnerable people with little identity and a lot of hate towards the state, and then plant the virus in their brains; Practising Muslims OTOH tend to be much better immunised in knowing the difference between right and wrong.

Agreed, but still recruitment in/outside mosques, still hate preachers in some areas (and interestingly on this same thread we have touched on why - some Western women do dress in a way that is overly provocative - cleavage etc, and certain Muslims despise Western women for a perceived lack of morality).
The terrorist blown up in the raid in northern Paris after the November attacks (Abdoud) had criticised his own father for not being strict enough with the up-bringing of the younger children of the family. So he kidnapped his 13 year old brother and took him to Syria to train with IS.
Although the Belgian bomber brothers were filmed in a nightclub, it is not clear-cut. What purpose does it serve to say whether they were or were not devout in their observance of Islam? The fact that they did what they did in the name of their religion is the point.
And it is why these two Swiss youngsters need to be watched, and taught that the rules of their country (respect to a teacher) should come before propaganda they found on the Internet.
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Old 12.04.2016, 13:11
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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1. You can choose - make them a packed lunch. No one is force-feeding your kids.
2. Jewish kids who go to jewish schools do eat Jewish food, with no choice. non-jewish kids who go to jewish schools also eat kosher food. The difference is that its not as fashionable to hate jews, so no one cares.
3. You're really not getting this, are you...your kids are not forced to eat anything. It is available, and your kids partake, with your passive blessing. If you have a problem, make them lunch. If it is really an issue, find an alternative school. Again, parenting choices that you're trying to pass off as imposition.
4. As a normal person, with a reasonable degree of intelligence, i am more concerned that people like you exist, who believe the apocalypse is only one halal chicken nugget away.
1/ packed lunch is not an option where my kids went to school
2/ Jewish kids in public schools are offered Kosher food but do not impose it on the entire school (you are obtuse, truly)
3/ nothing to do with parenting choices. Only hot food available at lunchtime. But of course, you're so dim you think changing schools is a viable option.
4/ I ate a Halal chicken last night (delicious btw) but I chose to buy it. There's a difference. I also bought bacon.

Europe is only as strong as the vigilance of the people who reflect seriously on its laws and culture and shape policy accordingly.
People like you will only weaken it.

Last edited by Britething; 12.04.2016 at 13:12. Reason: Typo
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  #463  
Old 12.04.2016, 13:14
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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I'm sorry Odile, I like you and all, but you cannot possibly be that naive. Are you actually serious with that statement?




Can you post/link a few examples please of verbal and physical attacks on women wearing a headscarf?
http://metro.co.uk/2016/04/03/woman-...atman-5792933/

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/late...-Sutton-London

http://tellmamauk.org/muslim-woman-d...book-brussels/

http://tellmamauk.org/all-muslims-ar...n-underground/

http://tellmamauk.org/aiden-fletcher...muslim-doctor/

http://tellmamauk.org/strand-campus-...hate-incident/

http://tellmamauk.org/merseyside-pol...-muslim-woman/

And this is just March-April 2016, and just in the UK (apart from the molenbeek case where she was run over with a car).

I should add - Tell MAMA are the only organisation as far as i am aware tracking hate crimes against muslims. They work directly with government and police forces across the UK.

Last edited by J2488; 12.04.2016 at 13:46.
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  #464  
Old 12.04.2016, 13:22
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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1/ packed lunch is not an option where my kids went to school
2/ Jewish kids in public schools are offered Kosher food but do not impose it on the entire school (you are obtuse, truly)
3/ nothing to do with parenting choices. Only hot food available at lunchtime. But of course, you're so dim you think changing schools is a viable option.
4/ I ate a Halal chicken last night (delicious btw) but I chose to buy it. There's a difference. I also bought bacon.

Europe is only as strong as the vigilance of the people who reflect seriously on its laws and culture and shape policy accordingly.
People like you will only weaken it.
1. Ah, i see. so it was a case of 'eat this food or your kids go hungry'? I dont believe that for a second. In a country where the majority of kids still go home for lunch, i find it incredible a school would not allow a packed lunch, if the parents weren't home. Perhaps if you simply didnt want to make a packed lunch...
2. riiiight...so jewish schools offer non-kosher food to a tiny minority of their students, whereas public schools force everyone to eat the same.
3. It is parenting choices - in this case, a poorly informed parent. If it is as serious as you make it sound, then changing schools would be viable. Unless, of course, you're blowing this whole thing out of proportion because that allows you to excuse your parenting choices.
4. Ahhh, so halal meat is fine because you pay for it, but when you are force fed it, you want to choose what type of meat you are force fed, is that it?

By the way - Halal only covers the meat. Whats wrong with the veggies the school is serving? Whats wrong with them that your kids cant eat them?
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Old 12.04.2016, 13:27
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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I'm sorry Odile, I like you and all, but you cannot possibly be that naive. Are you actually serious with that statement?

Deadly serious- pick your fights carefully. There would be nothing wrong with saying- girls are allowed to wear a scarf to cover the head- but jijab or burka are not acceptable. Same as saying that swimming with a burkini is fine. Why are kippas tolerated, for instance?

I totally agree with you that serving halal meat for all, is not acceptable, or taking pork off the menus. Providing a vegetarian or fish alternative is easy enough. In all the schools I visited in France over the years, there was always a choice of menu. All it takes is a bit of willing and imagination, simples.




Here is a photo of my French heroine, Latifa Ibn Zatien- receiving her ward for 'women of courage' in the USA last week. The mother of a young French soldier, Muslim, who was killed by an Islamic terrorist a couple of years ago. She has found that the only way to survive is to dedicate her life to speak to youngster in the Cités of France, schools and Youth associations, Mosques, etc- about real Islam and values, and against radicalisation that leads to terrorism. But she says the way North African youngsters are treated on a daily basis, even 2nd, 3rd generation French- the exclusion, poor education, exclusion for minor differences (wishing to wear a scarf, even when it does not cover the face or eyes as in the photo, lack of jobs and opportunities, daily rejections, etc- is making it very difficult. Can you truly tell me that Latifa's scarf is any kind of barrier to her full integration in French society, really. As said, pick your fights, and pick them well.

When she attended the Charlie Hebdo demos, with other Muslims, she was sworn and spat at- but she smiled back.





Can you post/link a few examples please of verbal and physical attacks on women wearing a headscarf?
Oh come one- it happens all the time, but is very rarely reported. Saying it isn't is really naïve, truly.

And as said, in the meantime 1000s of cheap private but subsidised Catholic schools by-pass secularity principles day in, day out, in France- giving French parents the 'right' to wear signs of religion and mostly segregate their own children.

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...00&oe=57BAD40E

Look her up on facebook, and if you can, support her campaign in any way you can. She has recently taken a group of Muslim teenagers on a visit to Israel - what an amazing, wonderful woman. Looks at her eyes, not her scarf.

Last edited by Odile; 12.04.2016 at 13:43.
  #466  
Old 12.04.2016, 13:45
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Although the Belgian bomber brothers were filmed in a nightclub, it is not clear-cut. What purpose does it serve to say whether they were or were not devout in their observance of Islam?
Seriously? I mean, are you just trolling now, or are you seriously asking that?

Good god. ( i say that, and im an atheist).

Or am i not seeing this right? Perhaps all devout muslims go to nightclubs, and therefore the nightclub serves only non-alcoholic drinks...you know, because of the minority and all...Is that what you're angry about? Were the nightclub forced to change their alcohol policy too?

Devout muslims, by definition of being devout, do not go to nightclubs, because in doing so, they are no longer devout. Like a vegetarian who eats meat, the two are not really compatible. Unless of course, there's no music, no dancing, only hushed conversation, and everyone is dressed modestly, all 4 of which are reasons why a nightclub would be avoided rather than frequented.
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Old 12.04.2016, 13:47
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Oh come one- it happens all the time, but is very rarely reported. Saying it isn't is really naïve, truly.

And as said, in the meantime 1000s of cheap private but subsidised Catholic schools by-pass secularity principles day in, day out, in France- giving French parents the 'right' to wear signs of religion and mostly segregate their own children.

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...00&oe=57BAD40E

Look her up on facebook, and if you can, support her campaign in any way you can. She has recently taken a group of Muslim teenagers on a visit to Israel - what an amazing, wonderful woman. Looks at her eyes, not her scarf.
Who is she, and how do i support her campaign?
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Old 12.04.2016, 13:53
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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this is not a French issue. same happened in, for example Turkey, until very recently. purpose is to separate state and religion.
Yes, France seperated the state from religion a long time ago. Isn't that what this thread is about?
Keeping (extremist) interpretation of religion out of schools?
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Old 12.04.2016, 14:05
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Yes, France seperated the state from religion a long time ago. Isn't that what this thread is about?
Keeping (extremist) interpretation of religion out of schools?
Come now, BT, be honest...you meaning keeping one particular religion out of schools. If it was really about keeping religion out of schools, the other 8,847 schools would have been shut down by now.

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In France, which has only four Muslim schools, some of the country’s 8,847 Roman Catholic schools have become refuges for Muslims seeking what an overburdened, secularist public sector often lacks: spirituality, an environment in which good manners count alongside mathematics, and higher academic standards.

For some, economics argue for Catholic schools, which tend to be smaller than public ones and much less expensive than private schools in other countries. In return for the schools’ teaching the national curriculum and being open to students of all faiths, the government pays teachers’ salaries and a per-student subsidy. Annual costs for parents average 1,400 euros (less than $2,050) for junior high school and 1,800 euros (about $2,630) for high school, according to the Roman Catholic educational authority.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/wo...ools.html?_r=0
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Old 12.04.2016, 14:10
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Or am i not seeing this right? Perhaps all devout muslims go to nightclubs, and therefore the nightclub serves only non-alcoholic drinks...you know, because of the minority and all...Is that what you're angry about? Were the nightclub forced to change their alcohol policy too?

Devout muslims, by definition of being devout, do not go to nightclubs, because in doing so, they are no longer devout. Like a vegetarian who eats meat, the two are not really compatible. Unless of course, there's no music, no dancing, only hushed conversation, and everyone is dressed modestly, all 4 of which are reasons why a nightclub would be avoided rather than frequented.
No, you're not seeing this right at all. Your belligerent attitude (must be the influence of the Daily Mail you know so well) just shows how much so, but doesn't mask your ignorance. You claim the Koran nowhere states that women should wear the hijab. I proved that to be untrue. The French translation of the Arabic was unequivocal.
The point I was making was directed at Castro (unlike you he has a brain he can use). What is the point of saying they were Muslims for all of 5 minutes, or drank alcohol, or went to nightclubs. They did what they did (and sacrificed themselves) in the name of Islam. Some of the terrorists had been radicalised in Syria and were truly bonkers in their extremism (kidnapping a younger brother) and others were only Muslim when it suited them. How does that change what they did?
When people try to 'profile' the kind of youngsters that are recruited, they invariably make sweeping conclusions and in so doing also make mistakes.
On another thread it was 'demonstrated' how they all came from educated well-to-do backgrounds. Not the case.
Abdeslam and his brother ran a sleazy café and were run in for drug-dealing.
The Belgian bombing brothers were petty criminals. But some are white-collar workers, or graduate students.
These two youngsters (to once again attempt to keep this on track) are living in the land of milk and honey. Their father has said they were wrong to ask for 'special treatment'. Ok, but the issue here, is that these youngsters are seeing things on the Internet and are tempted to want to implement change.
So if we're not careful, we lose sight of the subtle ways in which our society changes to accommodate. And we wake up one day and the shift is definable.
Our kids eat Halal (whether we like it or not), the lady driving the bus wears a hijab, and we can't get a decent bacon sandwich.
I am being deliberately flippant, but I think the message is clear.

Last edited by Britething; 12.04.2016 at 14:12. Reason: Typo
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Old 12.04.2016, 14:16
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Who is she, and how do i support her campaign?
Latifa Ibn Ziaten- look her page up on Facebook and Google her. She is just amazing and does indeed need all the support we can give her.

As she says, many of those kids are being radicalised by the daily exclusion their experience in the Cités, in their school, in the daily rejections they experience, for apprenticeships, jobs, opportunites of every kind, day in, day out.

Strangely enough- many Muslim families turn to private Catholic schools for a decent education and more tolerance. Girls are allowed to wear a discreet scarf ther, for instance, and to pray in the Chapel, and observe major festivals with tolerance. Several of my Muslim French friends attended Catholic schools and were supported in achieving their potential - and yet still faced incredible rejection at a later stage when it came to finding good jobs relevant to their excellent qualifications (despite the girls choosing NOT to wear a scarf or any outward religious sign).
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Old 12.04.2016, 14:29
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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No, you're not seeing this right at all. Your belligerent attitude (must be the influence of the Daily Mail you know so well) just shows how much so, but doesn't mask your ignorance. You claim the Koran nowhere states that women should wear the hijab. I proved that to be untrue no, you didnt.. The French translation of the Arabic was unequivocal.No, it isnt.
The point I was making was directed at Castro (unlike you he has a brain he can use). What is the point of saying they were Muslims for all of 5 minutes, or drank alcohol, or went to nightclubs. They did what they did (and sacrificed themselves) in the name of Islam. Some of the terrorists had been radicalised in SyriaNo, they werent. and were truly bonkers in their extremism (kidnapping a younger brother) and others were only Muslim when it suited them. How does that change what they did?
When people try to 'profile' the kind of youngsters that are recruited, they invariably make sweeping conclusions and in so doing also make mistakes.
On another thread it was 'demonstrated' how they all came from educated well-to-do backgrounds. Not the case.
Abdeslam and his brother ran a sleazy café and were run in for drug-dealing.
The Belgian bombing brothers were petty criminals. But some are white-collar workers, or graduate students.
These two youngsters (to once again attempt to keep this on track) are living in the land of milk and honey. Their father has said they were wrong to ask for 'special treatment'. Ok, but the issue here, is that these youngsters are seeing things on the Internet and are tempted to want to implement changeNo, they arent..
So if we're not careful, we lose sight of the subtle ways in which our society changes to accommodateNo, we dont.. And we wake up one day and the shift is definable.
Our kids eat Halal (whether we like it or not)No they dont., the lady driving the bus wears a hijab, and we can't get a decent bacon sandwich.
I am being deliberately flippant, but I think the message is clear.
Belligerant. I take that as a compliment. Thank you :-)

I actually put on the thread the exact verses, for all to see. rather than just a random collection of numbers in the hope that people would agree with me.

The point is, my unenlightened friend, that you cant judge the lives of millions of people based on the actions of someone who doesn't understand their life.

being wary of a handshake is not going to affect the fabric of swiss society, nor is there any reason for this to be international news. Of course, when not-so-smart people make such a big issue out of it, and claim change is being thrust upon them when its stupidity to even suggest so, than i can understand why it would make international news.

Regarding your kids, im going to lay down some truth, Ive been tip-toeing around it, but here goes:
>That you believe your kids have no choice is only because you, as a parent, are not willing to invest the time and effort to feed your kids what you want them to eat. You are happy for somebody else to feed them, and then you complain about it. Lazy parenting, and a false sense of entitlement. I am more concerned that you are imposing on your children this belief that they are somehow different to other muslim kids, that they shouldnt even break bread with them. In so doing, you create barriers, and ultimately, it will make it more difficult for your own kids to build bridges with people different to themselves. In your scenario, i feel sorry for your kids, but only because you force your viewpoint on them.

>I dont give a crap what the lady driving the bus is wearing. I will still say 'Haubtbahnhof bitte' when i board, and 'danke' when i leave. As long as she drives safely, it bothers me not one iota what her sartorial choices are. Nor, incidentally, do i care what diety she may or may not choose to pray to.

>We're in Switzerland - they dont have the same bacon here. Deal with it.


Ps i love the fact that you gave me negative reputation for being, and i quote, 'abusive and inflammatory'. Its comforting to know your hypocrisy extends to beyond your parenting.

Last edited by J2488; 12.04.2016 at 14:41.
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Old 12.04.2016, 14:32
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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In Switzerland?

By posting anonymous notes on the laundry room door of course. How else?

Off topic
Or on the door of one's apartment.
We might joke but these things do happen.
I have a couple friend who found a note with "foreigners out" on their door. (it must be because of the name, otherwise they are really quiet and indistinguishable from the crowd)
They kept their calm and didn't go to police though, it was only one-off incident nevertheless a bit scary...we even joked about this - it must have been another foreigner who did it. Probably an EFer.
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Old 12.04.2016, 14:42
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Fixed it for you.

Ps i love the fact that you gave me negative reputation for being, and i quote, 'abusive and inflammatory'. Its comforting to know your hypocrisy extends to beyond your parenting.
Well, I think calling someone a 'berk' is abusive. Constantly saying 'you don't get it, do you' is inflammatory and yes, your attitude is belligerent. As is Odile's (and others have pointed it out).

You didn't fix anything. Your arguments are empty of any consequence. The Koran specifically admonishes women who don't wear the hijab (which shows how little 'you' know, despite accusing others of ignorance).
I know more about my parenting choices than you do, and what is available to my children. And no, they don't go home for lunch. How well do you know France (or French)?
The attitude you show here is one of extreme intolerance. I raise questions, and express concern. You use a (blunt) intellectual hammer to repeat yourself continually - achieving nothing.
The arguments I have put forward are valid and documented. Too bad for you if you're so blinkered or blinded by your own over-inflated idea of yourself. Once again, I encourage you to get out there and read. (Not just the Daily Mail).
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Old 12.04.2016, 14:54
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Well, I think calling someone a 'berk' is abusive. Constantly saying 'you don't get it, do you' is inflammatory and yes, your attitude is belligerent. As is Odile's (and others have pointed it out).

You didn't fix anything. Your arguments are empty of any consequence. The Koran specifically admonishes women who don't wear the hijab (which shows how little 'you' know, despite accusing others of ignorance).
I know more about my parenting choices than you do, and what is available to my children. And no, they don't go home for lunch. How well do you know France (or French)?
The attitude you show here is one of extreme intolerance. I raise questions, and express concern. You use a (blunt) intellectual hammer to repeat yourself continually - achieving nothing.
The arguments I have put forward are valid and documented. Too bad for you if you're so blinkered or blinded by your own over-inflated idea of yourself. Once again, I encourage you to get out there and read. (Not just the Daily Mail).

I dont think anyone on this forum has ever accused Odile of being belligerent. congrats, you're the first.

You keep claiming the Koran says this and that, but you have yet to respond to my post detailing the actual verses you yourself nominated. I called you out on your nonsense, and you are yet to respond.

I know enough about parenting, and France, and french schools to know they do not force-feed children there, and children are welcome to bring food from home. Assuming their parents are not too lazy so as to actually make them something.

The arguments you put forward are not valid, as they lack all semblance of logic and reason. they show only non-nonsensical logic, paranoia, and a fundamental lack of any understanding about the people they are subject to.

I am intolerant of stupid though, you've got me there.
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Old 12.04.2016, 15:03
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

http://www.20minutes.fr/societe/5816...-depuis-10-ans

The woman had been wearing the total veil (niqab) for over 9 years and was stopped and fined while driving, as the police said she lacked sufficiently safe vision to be driving.
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Old 12.04.2016, 15:14
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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Devout muslims, by definition of being devout, do not go to nightclubs, because in doing so, they are no longer devout. Like a vegetarian who eats meat, the two are not really compatible. Unless of course, there's no music, no dancing, only hushed conversation, and everyone is dressed modestly, all 4 of which are reasons why a nightclub would be avoided rather than frequented.
A gentleman's club in 19th Century London vs a gentleman's club in today's Las Vegas?
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Old 12.04.2016, 15:15
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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http://www.20minutes.fr/societe/5816...-depuis-10-ans

The woman had been wearing the total veil (niqab) for over 9 years and was stopped and fined while driving, as the police said she lacked sufficiently safe vision to be driving.
If she's been wearing it for nine years it must have been rather smelly. Maybe that's why the police stopped her?

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  #479  
Old 12.04.2016, 15:16
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

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I'd rather you argue your point on here then send me more of your insulting messages along with your red groans.
I usually do unless you deliberately misinterpret as you did in #391, there's no arguing on that level. If you have a problem with the message you are free to contact the mods.
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Old 12.04.2016, 15:17
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Re: What is your opinion on muslim pupils exempt from shaking hands with female teach

Agreed- if it impairs driving vision- of course.

If the bus driver is a good driver, and her scarf does not impair vision- what's your beef about it (halal or not) - or is it just that huge bee in your bonnet and sheer prejudice? As said, choose your battles in life, and choose carefully- ot they will just end up biting you where it hurts.
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