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Old 14.08.2016, 13:12
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Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

Often advised here by a few- never talk to the police if they question you.

As mentionned last year, a Senior Judge told us last year that although it is indeed the right of someone to refuse to give information about an alleged crime- it is like waving a red flag at a bull- and they will find any way legally possible to get the truth.

Published in Le Matin today- a driver was flashed doing some serious speeding one night- and when he got the fine, managed to prove he was abroad at the time- but refused to give info on who was driving. His wife and daughters all refused to say- so the Judge got all their phones confiscated to check all calls and SMS messages- and got the culprit that way. Ah well.... The Law allows a suspect to remain silent, but also allows the police and Judges to find different ways to get to the truth.
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Old 14.08.2016, 13:21
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Re: Keeping stumm- you right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

Or shtum as it's written in English. ( from Yiddish) Never knew how it was written before we acquired a Jewish daughter in law.

Stumm in German.
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Old 14.08.2016, 13:29
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

Surely the English version is "keeping mum".
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Old 14.08.2016, 14:20
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

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Surely the English version is "keeping mum".
Or " mum's the word".
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Old 14.08.2016, 14:46
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

Well LOL, you pick the expression and spelling ...

The point made is that if a citizen has the right to silence when questionned, the Police/judiciary, has the right to use 'any method available to get to the truth' - and that someone refusing to cooperate and answer questions is the easiest route to make police/judiciary damned determined to 'get you' - and will be supported by the Federal Tribunal.
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Old 14.08.2016, 14:52
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

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someone refusing to cooperate and answer questions is the easiest route to make police/judiciary damned determined to 'get you' - and will be supported by the Federal Tribunal.
However, in this case it seems that the person keeping quiet was not the person thay 'got'.

Tom
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Old 14.08.2016, 14:57
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

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Well LOL, you pick the expression and spelling ...

The point made is that if a citizen has the right to silence when questionned, the Police/judiciary, has the right to use 'any method available to get to the truth' - and that someone refusing to cooperate and answer questions is the easiest route to make police/judiciary damned determined to 'get you' - and will be supported by the Federal Tribunal.
Odile,

But isn't that the case with any legal system which acknowledges a right not to self incriminate? As long as the collection of evidence pursuant to an accused invoking the right to refuse self incrimination doesn't break any laws I see nothing wrong. Do you think that by refusing to give evidence the accused as a right for the entire case to be dropped?

I'm not sure just what it is that you are objecting to.
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Old 14.08.2016, 15:03
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

Well, I'd be surprised if the police in the UK could get permission to check peoples' phones over a speeding fine. For a criminal act yes, but not for something like that.
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Old 14.08.2016, 15:08
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

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Well, I'd be surprised if the police in the UK could get permission to check peoples' phones over a speeding fine. For a criminal act yes, but not for something like that.
What on earth has that got to do with the situation in Switzerland? As long as the Swiss authorities observe the accused rights as recognised here in Switzerland, and don't break any Swiss laws while collecting further evidence I don't see the objection.
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Old 14.08.2016, 15:10
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

Chris Huhne could answer that for you, though to be fair his speeding offence escalated into something else entirely.
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Old 14.08.2016, 15:42
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

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Chris Huhne could answer that for you, though to be fair his speeding offence escalated into something else entirely.
That's how it is: People who speed, lie and cheat need to be invesitigated... anywhwere.
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Old 14.08.2016, 16:02
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

"Serious speeding" is a criminal offence here, as far as I understand these things. If you have to go before a magistrate to have your sentence passed, and possible remedies include jail time, I understand that means you have crossed the line from a civil offence to a criminal offence.

If you refuse to give information about the culprit in a criminal case, information you must have, you have crossed the line into "conspiracy to pervert the course of justice" (offence wording as per Australian law). And the police are then perfectly entitled to investigate whatever legal sources they are allowed to investigate, to prove the culprit's identity.

Under Australian law, the only person who cannot be compelled to give evidence against you, is your spouse. Is that the case here too?
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Old 14.08.2016, 16:34
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

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Odile,

But isn't that the case with any legal system which acknowledges a right not to self incriminate? As long as the collection of evidence pursuant to an accused invoking the right to refuse self incrimination doesn't break any laws I see nothing wrong. Do you think that by refusing to give evidence the accused as a right for the entire case to be dropped?

I'm not sure just what it is that you are objecting to.
I am not objecting to anything- where did I say I objected? I said that it was like waving a red flag to a bull- makes the law pretty determined to get you, by (legal) hook or by crook.

MedeaF- same in Switzerland- it just depends on the seriousness of the speeding- in this case an excess that would lead to a prison sentence.
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Old 14.08.2016, 16:50
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

The idea behind saying nothing is to not incriminate yourself and this seems to have worked perfectly in this situation.

Make the police do some work IMO
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Old 14.08.2016, 16:59
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

If this thread is to act as a warning to those who may think that refusing to give information to the police will get them, or others, out of trouble, then perhaps the title should have made that clear.

The second idiom used here is, to me, confusing.
Raising the red flag means warning someone, but who is warning whom of what?
The idiom for provocation is 'Like a red rag to a bull'.

Refusing to give information to the police might provoke them to greater efforts to find a wrongdoer, but it might just be that they use all means at their disposal to enable them to close the case.

I know this sounds like nitpicking, but especially to non-native speakers the exact phrasing is important to enable the information to be understood.
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Old 14.08.2016, 17:07
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

I took Odile's post to be a warning:

If you get into trouble with the law, you should know that although you do have the right to refuse to answer any questions or give information, making use of that right might end up annoying the police and provoking them into a more thorough investigation.

And that then the Police might be legally permitted to go to quite some lengths, investigating into one's private life to an extent which might be unexpected, compared to the privacy that one might, if one comes from another country, have through would be sacrosanct.

Thanks, Odile.
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Old 14.08.2016, 17:33
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

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I took Odile's post to be a warning:
So did I. But for a warning to be effective it has to reach the person who might need it. Skipping through the threads after the weekend any possible interested parties seeing:
Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag.. would probably not read this thread at all.

'Refusing to cooperate with police may lead to them taking further action' might have caught an evildoers eye.

Last edited by Longbyt; 14.08.2016 at 17:47.
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Old 14.08.2016, 18:22
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Re: Keeping stumm- your right but nothing worse for raising the red flag..

Who hands their mobile over to the police without first doing a factory reset...
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