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  #41  
Old 05.04.2007, 07:55
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

For those interested in the issue of degree recognition and the usual problem of not finding work in one's field of expertise, please read this article:
Indo-Canadians battle to win skilled jobs

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/n...17e9ee5&k=3775

All the comments about Indo-canadians apply equally to other immigrants. Please note the comment about not being hired because of "over-qualification". I have personally experienced the same refusal and excuse.

All the best.

Beaumecxxx
aka Nicolas
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  #42  
Old 05.04.2007, 14:07
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

Very interesting stuff Beaumec, those comments about over-qualified immigrants not getting the jobs because the local laws do not recognise their qualifications can easily apply to many countries, including Switzerland and where I live, the UK, where you find degree holding Poles serving sandwiches at Subway or nuclear physician Slovaks working as receptionnists...
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  #43  
Old 07.04.2007, 04:59
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

Hi Exoticlatic, thanks for your comments. I do not want to come across as bitter or very negative. My comments regarding degree & professional recognition go to the essence of immigration: people (presumably) are looking to improve their financial/material position.

And the unfortunate thing is that if you are limited to minor jobs because your qualification are not recognized, then it does not matter what country you are living in. You will not experience all the "benefits" of moving to a richer country (such as Canada or Switzerland) because the incomes you will be offered are nowhere near sufficient.

I feel specially embarrassed because I spoke perfect French and English before arriving in Canada, so at least language could never be an excuse for my difficulties.

All I am suggesting is for each person to ask questions regarding what is required for their degree to be recognized. And contact each individual professional association to find out what is requried for each person. The professional associations who grant degree recognition are provincial (meaning you need a different recognition for each province, crazy but true). It is not the government who grants recognition but private associations. FIND OUT WHAT THEY REQUIRE IN YOUR INDIVIDUAL CASE !!!

I believe Canadian immigration authorities do a terrible job of telling people that they will NOT be able to work in their field at the beginning. It might take months (rare but possible) or years (3-5 years at least) to take the extra courses and pass the exams to get (maybe) a Canadian-recognized degree.

Are you prepared to work at menial jobs (with maximum monthly gross $2.400 Cdn or Swiss francs, net $1.800 Cdn or Swiss franc) for a few years? Because that has typically been the experience of ALL the immigrants I know.

Good luck.

Beaumecxxx
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  #44  
Old 07.04.2007, 09:34
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

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Very interesting stuff Beaumec, those comments about over-qualified immigrants not getting the jobs because the local laws do not recognise their qualifications can easily apply to many countries, including Switzerland and where I live, the UK, where you find degree holding Poles serving sandwiches at Subway or nuclear physician Slovaks working as receptionnists...
Quite true, but you will also find that where there is a real need in the UK, medicine for example, we are happy to fill quotas with nurses from Indonesia ... I feel that the UK is more apt to recognise professional qualifications than Switzerland.

My wife for example is a qualified ER Sister from Slovakia, the best she could find in Switzerland was wiping bums in an old peoples home, as the Swiss authorities were not interested in her qualifications or her 6+ years ER experience.
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  #45  
Old 07.04.2007, 10:40
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

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Hello!

After 6 years of waiting, we've finally got our Canadian immigrant visas, went to Victoria B.C. and Vancouver and got our PR permits.

6 years of waiting? We've actually been considering applying for an immigrant visa but had absolutely no idea the process can take this long. Was there a specific reason you had to wait or does it always take so long?
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  #46  
Old 08.04.2007, 07:11
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

I have been reading this thread with much interest as we are still in the process of "choosing a country to live". My wife is Russian and she spent 2 years in UK and then 10 years in US, with some time in Canada, in Toronto. We have 2 kids, and as they are coming closer to school age we are looking for the ways to run from US school system (we do not feel we can do homeschooling well enough). Although our experience is related mostly to US, we lived in Canada for a few months and have a few friends there. We also travelled quite a lot and spent more than 3 months total in Switzerland in the last 2 years.

Schools in Canada are better than here, in US, but if you went to a good school and an university/institute in Russia, then the level of primary education and up up until and including college will feel absolutely awful, in US and even in Canada. I've seen a few threads where people commented that the education in Switzerland is too general, but I certainly prefer it to no education at all.

West of US and Canada are really good for hiking and skiing, but you can never do anything just getting out of the door. Any outdoors experience assumes at least an hour of driving. Plus (my wife admits she is paranoid ) after she met a bear on a very short hike quite close to Vancouver, she does not want even to hear about hiking in Canada with small kids.

Another thing, our 3 years old "american" son cannot imagine living w/out a car. When on our trips to Europe we go without a car (say in Paris) he almost panics when he has to walk. He does not mind walking per se (he goes to quite long hikes with us already), but the idea of going shopping or sightseeing without a car still does not exist in his system. His car seat is almost the same as the second home for him.

And the point that I can make. People mentioned that Canadians tend to rattle about US all the time, that is true and sometimes quite hard to stop. In addition, they seem to become more and more like their big brother. Kids cannot walk around, have to be hauled to all the events in the cars, there is no notion of a free play and "friends from your neighbourhood". Even playdates involve driving 3-4 year olds to the playdate's house.

Again, I must repeat that I feel really strongly about the things described above, and in US they seem to be really atrocious. In Canada it is better but still very much like US.

Oh, and the very last point. The thing that you might buy in Vancouver for CA$600,000 will be really a shack, with walls that can be penetrated by a pencil. The majority of residential buildings in US and Canada are made mainly from pressed saw wood (my wife tells me in Russian it is called DSP - drevesno strughechnaya plita), with some cardboard around. No foundation; if there is a brick wall, it's "v pol kirpicha" and really even does not do a good job in any insulation.

Well, I can rattle myself longer and it is not exactly Canada vs Swiss, as we've been in Switzerland only as tourists so far. As I see from the forum there are tons of very idiosyncratic problems in blesses Switzerland too. Yet my feeling is that if you want your kids to be just a bit like yourself, generally educated, then you have to stay in Europe and educate them there. If they want to go further to MS and PhD, US will become the land of choice.

Sorry for quite a long message.

Edward
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  #47  
Old 10.04.2007, 18:45
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Re: Verify your degree recognition before moving to Canada

how about getting a Canadian degree ?

--------------------------------------------

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Danny, one more point briefly.

On average immigrants are much better educated than the general Canadian population. Nonetheless degree recognition is the key to being successful professionally in Canada. Without that recognition you are going to be blocked in the types of jobs you will be offered.

When I was talking about difficulties obtaining degree recognition I was refering to all nationalities, including West European. There are far more immigrants from Eastern Europe (many Serbs, Russians, Romanians, some Ukrainians and Poles, etc). In my opinion their quality of education is excellent, often better than Canadian.

Yet all people (including many Asians among them) face the hardship of not working in their field. There are thousands of university-eduated Chinese who are working "survival jobs", just because they want to stay here.

If you are 25 or 30 years old you still have options of companies hiring you with the view of training you. But once you are in your 40's or worse 50's employers are very reticent about hiring a foreigner with little "Canadian experience" and no recognized degree.

That is all for now
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  #48  
Old 11.04.2007, 00:34
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

Hi Danny,

I will try to reply to your question about getting a Canadian degree.

It is true you always have the option of getting a degree in Canada.
  1. But that requires time (I would guess an average of 4-5 years for a university-recognized degree). At what age are you immigrating?
  2. University education costs money. The average Canadian student finishes university with a debt of $25,000 Cdn or Swiss Francs. "In their 2006 submission to the Standing Committee on Finance, the Canadian Federation of Students (CFS) reported that students completing a four-year program would have an average debt of $25,000. With interest on the loan, repayment would cost on average nearly $50,000" Please follow this link: http://www.cfs-fcee.ca/html/english/...tudentloan.php
  3. Age. Despite the fact that officially discrimination based on age, sex, race or religion is prohibited, the real facts are that once you are in your late 40s or 50s, it is much more difficult to start a new job. If you are already working in the company then you have promotion options. But if you have little or no Canadian experience and a "new" Canadian degree companies are reticent to hire you. I have been told (unofficially) that I am approaching the point where my age (I am 46) is becoming an issue!
  4. During your 4-5 years of studying for a University degree you (and your family) need to live. What income are you going to earn?
Realistically I believe it would take a minimum 5 years for your lifestyle to approach that of the Canadian professionals. The key question is this: Do you believe that the increase in income/quality of life that you may obtain will compensate for 5-10 years of very low incomes during your university studies?

All the best

Nicolas
aka Beaumecxxx
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  #49  
Old 11.04.2007, 00:41
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

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Quite true, but you will also find that where there is a real need in the UK, medicine for example, we are happy to fill quotas with nurses from Indonesia ... I feel that the UK is more apt to recognise professional qualifications than Switzerland.

My wife for example is a qualified ER Sister from Slovakia, the best she could find in Switzerland was wiping bums in an old peoples home, as the Swiss authorities were not interested in her qualifications or her 6+ years ER experience.
Dear Polorise;

My sister is now a Registered Nurse (RN) working in London England. She took a 3-year course in London and graduated as an RN 6 months ago. She mentioned that thousands of Filipino nurses were accepted in the UK medical field. She also said Filipino nurses must finish a 4-year full-time university course.

The interesting point is that in Canada there are thousands of Filipinos (including hundreds if not thousands of nurses) who are not allowed to work because Canada does not recognize their degree!

But Canada recognizes the RN degree from the UK. So ....... Canada recognizes the UK degree, the UK recognizes the degree from the Phillippines but Canada does not recognize the Filipino degree!

Total protectionism at work, nothing else.

Best wishes to all.
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  #50  
Old 11.04.2007, 00:44
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

Wow, I can hardly believe some of the opinions here.
I grew up in downtown Toronto. It has become sooooooooooo American that even my family freaks me sometimes (and we use to be Italo-Canadian).
I left to go west with 19 yrs. and have never regretted a moment of the 9 years I spent in Vancouver. Let`s make a list.....
1)Miles of beach catering to singles,couples,families and nudists of all categories.
2)Wilderness just a short drive away complete with waterfalls,glacier water lakes romantic forests and of course the wildlife...not to mention the amazing monster sized B.C. slugs!
3)Whistler mountain
4)Lots of great alternative music!
5)Granville Island (the best marketplace in North America)
6)Stanley Park
7) Excellent universities
I could go on and on.
I lived by English Bay for 3 yrs. and Kitsalano for the remainder.
I`ve been here in Zürich since `87 and not a month goes by without having great memories of Van. just pop into my head.

Just go and experience it.
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  #51  
Old 11.04.2007, 00:51
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

Dear Batwoman;

I totally agree with you regarding the beauty of the Vancouver area, the mountains, skiing, water and beaches etc...

But I also would like to remind you that you cannot "eat the mountains". If you cannot earn a decent income you will not be able to enjoy much of the things you so poetically described

Nicolas
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  #52  
Old 11.04.2007, 12:04
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

I am Russian too. I lived in the US for ~7 years (been to Canada several times) and moved to Switzerland this past January for work.
Despite the fact that I expected "Swiss" prices and way of doing things (lake is not on fire, etc...) but what I see is exceeding my expectations in a bad way. There is no other way of saying that - Canada is MUCH MORE convenient country to live - prices wise, bureacracy wise and "everyday life organisation" wise.
Yes, Swiss nature is beautiful, but Vancouver and surroundings (BC, Seattle area, NW US, Alaska etc) are breathtaking too. Geneva's great location is obviously a plus and one should take advantage and travel around from Geneva, and explore everything. But there are other nice places in the world and more convenient and affordable for everyday life.

In my case the choice is US after a couple of years in Geneva
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  #53  
Old 11.04.2007, 13:14
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

Granville Island and Stanley Park are 2 of my fave places in BC!

gorgeous.

if I ever leave Switzerland (highly doubtful as the guy I married is a postman and I don't think he would find work easily) I wouldn't move back to Ontario, it would def. be out west. no question.
my aunt lives in Victoria, every time I visit, I don't want to leave.
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  #54  
Old 11.04.2007, 19:08
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

you cannot pay the bills through the mountains...the discussion is focused on work and opportunities.


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Wow, I can hardly believe some of the opinions here.
I grew up in downtown Toronto. It has become sooooooooooo American that even my family freaks me sometimes (and we use to be Italo-Canadian).
I left to go west with 19 yrs. and have never regretted a moment of the 9 years I spent in Vancouver. Let`s make a list.....
1)Miles of beach catering to singles,couples,families and nudists of all categories.
2)Wilderness just a short drive away complete with waterfalls,glacier water lakes romantic forests and of course the wildlife...not to mention the amazing monster sized B.C. slugs!
3)Whistler mountain
4)Lots of great alternative music!
5)Granville Island (the best marketplace in North America)
6)Stanley Park
7) Excellent universities
I could go on and on.
I lived by English Bay for 3 yrs. and Kitsalano for the remainder.
I`ve been here in Zürich since `87 and not a month goes by without having great memories of Van. just pop into my head.

Just go and experience it.
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  #55  
Old 11.04.2007, 19:10
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

so Vancouver it is then for the outdoor experience !

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Granville Island and Stanley Park are 2 of my fave places in BC!

gorgeous.

if I ever leave Switzerland (highly doubtful as the guy I married is a postman and I don't think he would find work easily) I wouldn't move back to Ontario, it would def. be out west. no question.
my aunt lives in Victoria, every time I visit, I don't want to leave.
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  #56  
Old 11.04.2007, 19:12
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

'been to canada several times' is not enough. You got to be there.

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I am Russian too. I lived in the US for ~7 years (been to Canada several times) and moved to Switzerland this past January for work.
Despite the fact that I expected "Swiss" prices and way of doing things (lake is not on fire, etc...) but what I see is exceeding my expectations in a bad way. There is no other way of saying that - Canada is MUCH MORE convenient country to live - prices wise, bureacracy wise and "everyday life organisation" wise.
Yes, Swiss nature is beautiful, but Vancouver and surroundings (BC, Seattle area, NW US, Alaska etc) are breathtaking too. Geneva's great location is obviously a plus and one should take advantage and travel around from Geneva, and explore everything. But there are other nice places in the world and more convenient and affordable for everyday life.

In my case the choice is US after a couple of years in Geneva
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  #57  
Old 11.04.2007, 19:55
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

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you cannot pay the bills through the mountains...the discussion is focused on work and opportunities.
Hello Danny and all

Danny we seem to be on the same wavelength, meaning the key element is work opportunities. I know that many people visit Vancouver and British Columbia because it is a beautiful part of the world.

But you could say the same for Cuba or the Dominican Republic !!!

There is a big difference between visiting (tourism) and actually making your home in a country.

The interesting point is that you Danny live in the area of Switzerland where I may be moving to (actually the company is based in Winterthur, close enough to Zurich ).

I am definitely curious about what life would be like in Zurich area. I visited the Valais (Wallis) many times when I was growing up in Belgium. My best friend's family own a chalet in the Valais and I went there maybe 20 times (did the grape harvest 4 years in a row). I also spent a few days in Geneva but the rest of Switzerland is a mystery (I did drive through the country though).

How far do you need to drive to reach good ski slopes from Zurich/Winterthur? Any idea what ski tickets cost?

Ciaoooooo to all
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  #58  
Old 18.04.2007, 17:38
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

Valais is probably cheaper than ZH. If you can find a position there, great ! Since you know the VS area, it is easier.

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Hello Danny and all

Danny we seem to be on the same wavelength, meaning the key element is work opportunities. I know that many people visit Vancouver and British Columbia because it is a beautiful part of the world.

But you could say the same for Cuba or the Dominican Republic !!!

There is a big difference between visiting (tourism) and actually making your home in a country.

The interesting point is that you Danny live in the area of Switzerland where I may be moving to (actually the company is based in Winterthur, close enough to Zurich ).

I am definitely curious about what life would be like in Zurich area. I visited the Valais (Wallis) many times when I was growing up in Belgium. My best friend's family own a chalet in the Valais and I went there maybe 20 times (did the grape harvest 4 years in a row). I also spent a few days in Geneva but the rest of Switzerland is a mystery (I did drive through the country though).

How far do you need to drive to reach good ski slopes from Zurich/Winterthur? Any idea what ski tickets cost?

Ciaoooooo to all
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  #59  
Old 18.04.2007, 19:03
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

you want to make it in North America ? Get a North American degree.

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Hi Danny,

I will try to reply to your question about getting a Canadian degree.

It is true you always have the option of getting a degree in Canada.
  1. But that requires time (I would guess an average of 4-5 years for a university-recognized degree). At what age are you immigrating?
  2. University education costs money. The average Canadian student finishes university with a debt of $25,000 Cdn or Swiss Francs. "In their 2006 submission to the Standing Committee on Finance, the Canadian Federation of Students (CFS) reported that students completing a four-year program would have an average debt of $25,000. With interest on the loan, repayment would cost on average nearly $50,000" Please follow this link: http://www.cfs-fcee.ca/html/english/...tudentloan.php
  3. Age. Despite the fact that officially discrimination based on age, sex, race or religion is prohibited, the real facts are that once you are in your late 40s or 50s, it is much more difficult to start a new job. If you are already working in the company then you have promotion options. But if you have little or no Canadian experience and a "new" Canadian degree companies are reticent to hire you. I have been told (unofficially) that I am approaching the point where my age (I am 46) is becoming an issue!
  4. During your 4-5 years of studying for a University degree you (and your family) need to live. What income are you going to earn?
Realistically I believe it would take a minimum 5 years for your lifestyle to approach that of the Canadian professionals. The key question is this: Do you believe that the increase in income/quality of life that you may obtain will compensate for 5-10 years of very low incomes during your university studies?

All the best

Nicolas
aka Beaumecxxx
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  #60  
Old 23.04.2007, 19:38
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Re: Canada vs. Switzerland

Can you explain why it takes 4-5 years to upgrade ? Example: if you have an engineering degree from Belgium, a masters degree in engineering from a Canadian university should take 1.5-2 years.

You mention 5-10 years of toughing it out as well. 5-10 ?

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Hi Danny,

I will try to reply to your question about getting a Canadian degree.

It is true you always have the option of getting a degree in Canada.

The key question is this: Do you believe that the increase in income/quality of life that you may obtain will compensate for 5-10 years of very low incomes during your university studies?

All the best

Nicolas
aka Beaumecxxx
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