lol...

i was once shushed in the "quiet" compartment by a business man who was reading a harry potter book - i was this close to thumping him...

I wouldnt necessarily agree with the comments that it is foreigners who leave the bad image introducing modern cult and impolite teenagers who listen to the loud music are South(Eastern) Europeans only. Irony is that younsters in Switzerland buy to modern culture that is propagated in Anglo speaking countries in terms of music and fashion. Just to avoid the statement that the locals "copy from foreigners a lot" in terms of lingo, rebellious behaviour e.g. listening to music on iPhone or IPOD is just one of them. In my opinion it is more old generation which is conservative and doesnt seem to perceive the difference in young society thus blaming the foreigners bringing detrimental novelty to Switzerland.

I disagree with you there MusicChick. It isn't the British, it isn't the Germans nor is it the Chinese immigrants who cause problems. Yugoslavians make up for a huge part of Swiss crime statistics and it won't go away by insisting "we're all the same, Swiss or foreign". Serbians were the 2nd largest immigration group in 2008, and nobody cares to ask why. They're not in the EU nor do they have any right for political asylum, so why the apparent preferential treatment over other countries despite the bad experience ? It's not a coincidence that Yugo became a swear word in Switzerland. I want my country to adopt a more pragmatic and mutually benefitial approach to immigration, rewarding those who can adapt and work, and not those who are 2-3 times more likely than any other nationality (or rather region) to abuse our social systems, murder, rape or steal. (Consult crime statistics sorted by nationalities in any Swiss canton to confirm this)
So I definetely welcome Germans, Italians, Portuguese, English, Thai to live and work here, but those with a criminal record or illegal entry should be made to leave the country.

Consider it in the eyes of a Vietnamese Uni graduate wishing to work for a couple of years in Switzerland. In the unlikely event he actually makes it, after all the time and money spent, what should he think about an Albanian just crossing the border, engaging in criminal activities and profiting from the Swiss social system ? Or indeed what should his Albanian countryman think who's made everything right and who doesn't get his Work Visa extended, when someone who boycotts the authorities' attempts to progress his asylum request ? I just can't approve of the current system, which gives a hard time to those who cooperate and work hard and makes life far too easy for those who don't. It's called social but I find it very antisocial. Sorry for the rant, definetely off-topic now.

And Jacek, you're right of course that it cannot be simplified in such a way, and listening to loud music is most certainly not confined to Yugos, but a lot of youth violence, bad behaviour and bullying, littering can indeed by pointed to this particular group.

Could suggest you desist from putting South (Eastern) European? Maybe as you mean to be specific you could be just that, putting your "eastern" in brackets suggests it is not so specific. Putting "southern" is insulting all those who have contributed to make Switzerland what it is today.Or is it really an accident? Maybe in their day they got similar treatment eh? I hope not!

I completely understand where you are coming from. I also come from a small country with an new ethnic group that causes more troubles than others (well, a girl of that ethnic origine was my best ever skating partner and taught me how to cook pirogees weehee). I also feel quite irrationally protective of my long gone ethnically homogenic virgine home and am not overall a big fan of political correctness..But life is moving fast, people mix, it is exciting being exposed to other countries and ethnic groups.

Stereotyping medias reach a lot of people, political parties have questionable ethics and no shame, insensitive attitudes of government are easily adopted without thinking, especially by people or nation used to trusting their government. Adding an ethnic tag on criminality in everyday communication feeds the negative public image that can stigmatize people who are working hard, maybe contributing more to the community than your average Swiss Joe (or Karl..I don't know what the Swiss equivalent is).

The truth is, and I am sure you would agree with me, not all Yugoslavian immigrants are looting, stealing and destroying. It's good to be openminded, they deserve a fair chance, not being lumped into one xenophobic stereotype just because they were born in certain area. Everybody wins.

Ok, off my soup box..

Or consider it in the eyes of any non-EU/CH citizen trying to work in the EU/CH. Or any non-US citizen trying to work in the US. Or...

Any immigration policy is inherently "unfair", because it discriminates against non-nationals based on an accident of birth. "You weren't born Swiss," it says, "so now if you want to come here you can't - or maybe you can, but you have to meet this-this-and-this criterion which a Swiss citizen wouldn't have to."

Somehow we're all OK with that though, because we understand the aim of immigration is not universal fairness, but national interest.

So: Switzerland judges that having free-movement treaties with the EU (and all that entails) is in its citizens' best interest. We can discuss whether that is in fact the case or not, but appeals to "fairness" are useless when fairness was never the point.

I can certainly agree to that MusicChick, one of my best friends at University was Kosovo-Albanian, another at college was Albanian and probably my best female friend back then was Serbian. But all 3 agreed with one thing: (and they didn't know each other) Do not get associated with other youth groups consisting only of Yugos. Keeping a healthy distance to them and having mostly Swiss friends made them successful, well integrated Swiss citizens (or well on the way of getting naturalized; one of my friends got refused the first time because living in the suburbs where a vast majority of crime is being commited by your nationality isn't a plus..)
And I think herein lies the problem, by not having a heavy hand and extraditing criminal Yugos all the others just get lumped in, no matter how well-behaved they are.
It isn't the prejudice or racism of Swiss that caused their bad reputation, it's the actions of their fellow countrymen for the last decades that makes it extremely difficult to get accepted or employed as an -ic. And I don't think it's unfair to apply different immigration standards to different nationalities, the same is done with Visa applications the world over.

@tomcat: You're the only one on this board who groans at my posts, would you consider explaining why you disagree with me or are you just being obnoxious ?

But that's exactly my point! None of the ex-yugoslavion countries are in the EU, so why do they get preferential treatment over other 3rd world countries despite our bad experience with just these countries ? The war is no excuse to still allow thousands of Serbians entering every year. Nothing to do with fairness indeed, but Switzerland does not profit with its current policies, but the left thinks it's "social" to keep it this way, neglecting the argument that it would be just as social to let in someone from another country, like Vietnam for example.

Thumping him with the hefty tome? "Thou shalt not peruse this trash!" while thrashing him?


My other half and I were once shushed in the 'quiet' carriage by a woman when he, sotto voce, asked me a three-word question and I answered with two words just as quietly. He said later he felt like giving her a few choice words but she already had loused up the carriage with her "excuse me, please be quiet; this is a quiet compartment; if you want to talk, go to another carriage".

The funny thing was, right after she alighted, some guy came in, sat in her place and spoke on his cellphone for 10 minutes.

...Or Texas.

(seriously, I'm working on it)

Just because you're within your rights doesn't mean it's right to do it if you're disturbing other people.

I don't know what surprises me most. The fact that you think this is an appropriate way to treat somebody else, or the number of people that support such utter lack of civility by pressing the thanks button. Fortunately the OP behaved with a little more courtesy for which I'm going to give him some rep.

There is a signpost at the Top of Europe (Jungfraujoch) that says "pissing prohibited here". That doesn't mean it is allowed everywhere where there is no such board


I second that.

mottamotta, Not a desperate housewife is absolutely right.

And BTW if your imaginary friend has already an engagement I can introduce mine to you as we (me and MIF, obviously) both live in Basel

Speaking seriously you should judge the music volume. It can happen that the volume is a bit too high and we do not realize it.

I would have turned it off too (even if the music was not that loud). In front of a lady we are always gentlemen, don't we?

I've also done the right thing several times today: do I win CHF5.- too?

Do you want CHF5 for every time you did the right thing today or the CHF5 cover the whole day? It may get expensive, you know...

Every time I had the choice and temptation to do the wrong thing but did the right thing should - in my oh so humble opinion - be rewarded. Each time. Virtue is no reward, and the OP's post doesn't make sense, either. Just because everyone else is doing it...

I hope that thanks is enough as a reward. You may not even get that so you'll have to be satisfied with virtue. Sometimes the reward is a chat with the lady/man that complained.

In the case of the OP there is too much negative energy involved in discussing with an angry lady. When I say negative energy I am not talking about karma but simply about the energy you waste by engaging in a discussion with someone that won't retreat from his/her opinion.

I can tell no in that situation but what do I obtain? Can I continue to listen to my music? If the lady is really angry she will engage you in an argument and you will not listen to the music anyway.

Since it's a "battle" for a not so important thing I will just not pick it up. For my rights you can bet I would argue but for some loud (in the ears of the lady) music? No thanks.

I always listen to music (very LOUD) in the quiet carriges as there is too much distraction in the rest of the train to properly appreciate the music. If somebody comes and asks me to be quiet I just politely tell them to go to another carrige if they want to talk, as this is the silent carriage.

I even had to tell the ticket inspector to shut up and that he should use sign language the next time as he was disturbing me. You would think that he would have known better?

Beware the bloke armed with the scissors, then...

Wow, I thought it was a joke, no?

It's annoying to hear somebody's loud music, esp if you are waiting in line, or if somebody's whistling loud too..I like loud and weird music but does not mean I gota bug the poor folks that have to be near me (trains, waiting rooms, lines in shops). I have seen so many people playing air guitars and drums in Geneva public transport while listening to some utterly kitchy stuff, it's so funny. Or the rich pseudo gangsta hiphop kids, rapping..