Hi there!

First of all: There is already an article about "Das Magazin" in this forum. However, I don't feel that talking about one specific article in that magazin and about the magazin itself belongs to the same topic. If one of the moderators don't agree with that, feel free to join the threads together!

Appr. 2 weeks ago, there was an interesting article in "Das Magazin". It is about English people living in Zurich, and what they think of the city and life here in Switzerland. So I'm wondering if you have experienced the same or whether you totally disagree with what the interviewed people said.

Here's the link to the article: City in der Stadt - Das Magazin

Unfortunately, the article is in German...

Looking forward to your reactions...

So long,

-KraBaT^

Actually I'd been meaning to mention that one. And an online version. Good one!

I read this article and felt like writing to Ursi v. Arx and saying: "What about the others?"

It irked me that she focused on the wealthy, privileged set. What about those from less-wealthy backgrounds? The tired, poor, dispossessed? <sigh>

(Good Lord, poor English speaking people???)

However, I read her article from yesterday's Magazin, about the ubiquity of luxury and the single-minded pursuit of Me! Me! Me! in our society. The lack of people willing to run against the herd puzzles me. She put it nicely at the end, on a great grace note (I paraphrase for the sake of translation):

"The stroked doggy is willingly fed. But never respected"

Go girl.

Was interesting at the start !! But couldn't get real essence of the article !!


Someone could explain in a nut shell, what the article was about ??

You mean many people here?

And not the international assignment for 2 years and where do I get self raising flour brigade found on a certain Yahoo group?

Well, I didn't mean poorly spoken English people

Basically, the article commented on the large number of English speaking people in Zurich and how they don't / can't / won't integrate, as they have their own highly organised networks and social lives. (Does this Forum count? )

Interviews were given to 'players', of the sort who follow their significant other around the globe so he - for it usually is - can follow his megabucks career.

Meanwhile, 'Binky' does needlework (no, not that sort. That'd be kinda interesting) or has her horse flown in from Sweden.

Sugar Daddy calls the shots.

Many intelligent, successful women succumb to this lifestyle. Beats the hell outta me why. Is money and the illusion of security all that matters to them?

As for the tired, poor, dispossessed: nah, screw them, there's no story there, right?

That's the dominant image of Anglo-Saxon expats I'm afraid, a strange set of distant, aloof people. Unsurprisingly, they see the Swiss as...distant and aloof.

I have to say reading this forum, I've started to amend that view, which I held myself up to a point, which is another thing you can be quite proud about, I would come here for tips If I had to move to the German part of the country actually

One main point of the article, as Max already mentioned, is that many English can't / won't integrate properly into society. How come?

Is it the Swiss people that won't let them (which might not be the least probable possibility when you know the Swiss a bit ) or is it that they do not want to or fear to lose contact to their roots? Or is it something I cannot think of now?

Well, it IS getting late

Expats act the same the world over. The more isolated, 'different' a new culture may be, the more likely people will seek the comfort of their self-imposed 'ghetto'.

I've lived and worked in many countries and understand it in Syria, for example, but not here. For the majority of us, we're amongst similarly feathered birds.

Or are we???

That's the fun of culture shock... if only it went that deep. But it doesn't: it's about lifestyle (read: me! me! me!)

I work hard all day
I wanna drink Guinness in the evening
I spend my money partying or flying to Prague for the weekend
I moan a lot about local differences, how things *should* be done

I don't want to leave my bubble

Well, understandable if you're only here for a while. Growing roots takes a bit more dedication. (Never could stand those Australian Embassy beer nights in Damascus...)

Okay I've read the whole shebang. Could've been compressed to half the length, really.

It always surprises me when a group actively tries to separate itself from the rest of society. Be it these knitting expats or the orthodox jews right where I live, in Zürich, Kreis 3. But it's their decision.

I just hope the expats who're seriously interested to get in contact with their host country don't limit themselves to interactions at the workplace and on wanderwegs, or define a Swiss character (if such a thing exists) through the few words they exchange in a boutique.

And knowing the local language is an important thing, in my opinion! Essential for blue collar workers and an advantage to higher income earners. The latter can do without but you lock out people from your social web that have similar interests but walk different paths in life, so learning the language often is worth it.

Integration means learning the language, eh?
What? Swiss German?

It's more we can't integrate because of the langage, no, camped up dialect barrier.

I understand and read German quite well now, but Swiss German I'm lucky for one word in 20.
I know people who have been here many years, married to Swiss who still can't understand Swiss Germans in full flow.

I understand the German of a colleague from Swiss Romandie better than I understand the language of Swiss German friends...

My simplistic take on the situation is to look at expats themselves. They are either:

a) Go-getters with a high opinion of themselves who are "working abroad"
b) people that came here for a particular job or assignment(subclass of a. )

c) people leaving their home country to get away from something or because they don't fit in anywhere else.
d) people following someone else doing a) or b)
e) people genuinely interested in alternative cultures and are here for non traditional or non-career reasons.

In my opinion the vast majority fall into classes a) to d). The ones I have met are primarily in class a) or b) and often full of themselves until they have been here a few years. The ones in class c) are easy to identify, but you will come away depressed from the encounter...

The people in class e) are probably the most interesting to meet...

dave

There is also group f) People who met and married a Swiss citizen.

I've been living and working in Asia for 25 years and learned about 5 languages so far, and am now working on German. I wasn't posted overseas by a multinational company but went travelling in Asia after school and just decided to stay out there. I don't try to go completely native but instead to find a balance between my own cultural habits and those of my current host country.
I have met hundreds if not thousands of people who sound like those profiled in the magazine article. Those who live in little bubbles of home-style comfort, buffered from their host country by assistants, interpreters, maids, imported foodstuffs and satellite TV, surrounded by friends from their own culture. The English do not have a monopoly on bubble-dwelling. Plenty of other nationalities are competing for that title. If you think that this class of English expat in Switzerland is obnoxious, you should have seen Hong Kong in the 80's.

Sometimes I wish they'd all just stayed home and watched the world on TV instead, like when you meet one who's lived in a country for 10 years and not even learned to say 'thank you' in the local language, despite everyone around them bending over backwards to make them feel at home. Or those sad bastards who eat pie and chips at an 'Engrish pub' every day while ignoring the plethora of fantastic local food literally beating the door down outside. Other times I remember that their consumption is what drives the local supermarket chains to stock those import goodies we all crave sometimes. Even stuffy expats have their uses.

I would if he knows they're saying that about him.

Integration is a good point. I cite my sister in Canada who struggled to make friend. Why? Because she did not go to school there and other such factors.

English-speakers in Switzerland (Zurich certainly) often start out a one of the "pubs" and meet up with like-minded people (whom are also expats of some kind). Are we ghettoising ourselves (especially with things like AWCZ and the like)? Well, good question.

It does change when you move out of the city, living next to your fellow expat, and into a smaller community - but it's a slow process and by this time you're older and disinterested.

Should we touch on the fact that 10% of Swiss live outside Switzerland too? If you factor in 7 million people here of which 20% are classed as foreign and see 500'000 Swiss not here, that's a similar proportion - the world gets ever-smaller.

They've probably been reading this site too - the complaints of driving at 120 in the fast lane ...

But it's a bit more complex than that. For example, I'm basically a b) on your scale. But then you see I'm very far from a go-getter, and as opposed to having a high opinion of myself I am essentially a bundle of fear and self-loathing.

Also, I deliberately tried to find a job in an interesting country, and have tried hard to learn the language, make Swiss friends etc, so that's kind of closer to your e) classification. Add to that the fact that I've sort of decided to come back here in the long run when I've done a couple of contracts elsewhere (in other culturally interesting places). Basically I think you're being a bit harsh on those of us who came here for a job; we're not all bubble-dwellers.

me! me! me!

Which class do you fit into?

I also think there is another group that are trying to find somewhere better to live than where they came from. The grass is greener group?

I actually think it is easier to find friends and meet people in a different language country. I tend to notice that English speakers are more willing to be friendly and to chat to anyone than they would be if they were at home.
Something to do with realising that they have to make more of an effort.

IMO you don't meet an "average" Brit in Zürich. Its not even a major holiday destination, and few people would seek it out as a place to visit.

Something that causes you to up-sticks and leave your home country will either be a push-factor, or a pull-factor. The grass is always greener is a pull factor along with financial and career incentives of working in well-paid Switzerland. Not many bus drivers or dustbin men leave UK to come and work in Zürich. There are exceptions (such as aupairs). The expats here seem to be white-collar professionals.

English speakers chat to anyone in the right environment, its called a pub or when on holiday. Outside of that, there needs to be reason to break free of the norms. Jeremy Paxman and Bill Bryson have written good books dicussing the strange behaviour of the English...

dave

Just been reading around on this, and other opinions on the British and I came across this from the the Daily mail.
Now I know the article is trying to provoke a typical reaction but I can't help but think that some of it is true.

Quote: "The average Briton is a money-obsessed binge-drinker who spends his time watching TV home-makeover programmes and revelling in the Second World War."