[Thread split] Home alone -- the Swiss view on leaving children unattended

[Mrs. Doolittle]

	Quote:	meloncollie
	I was a bit taken aback when a neighbor - who I really didn't know - popped by one evening, baby intercom in hand. She was going out for dinner, and would I mind listening in on the baby every once in a while? I offered to go over to her flat to babysit while she was gone, but she said no, she really wasn't comfortable with strangers in her home, listening in on the baby was all that was required... I have no idea if this is a common practice or not, but since then I've been asked to do the same by other Swiss neighbors. As the person left sort-of-but-not-really-in-charge, it made me very uncomfortable.

Did she leave you a key incase you heard something?

Maybe the world was a better place before baby monitors when parents hired babysitters. For a babysitter is was a great excuse to do homework and get paid.

[simon_ch]

Of course things happen, but if you treat a kid like a baby he'll behave as one.
We had accidents, cuts, burns, whatever, and just dealt with it, kids aren't stupid, we knew when we had to go to the doctor, and yes, often we'd go alone with our friends and tell our mum later, hoping she'd not get angry.
Go to India for a healthy dose of reality, and you'll quickly realize there is no reason why you should treat your kid like an imbecile.

[Kittster]

	Quote:	olygirl
	The Swiss are quite relaxed on leaving their kids at home and amazingly enough, it is rare that something negative happens.

We had a Great Dane to look after us.

You know, we were often alone and yes, sometime stuff happened but we made sure we somehow sorted it out ourselves, because it was usually while doing something we shouldn't have. And we walked the 1.5 km to school no problem, what's with the taxi service these days?

[Mélusine]

A mother whose 2 kids I was babysitting didn't see the point of making the kids wear helmets for biking. She told me that as a child she was all time cycling in the countryside without a helmet, and nothing ever happened to her.

I guess it is all about finding the right limit. You want your children to become responsible, but without pushing the luck too far.

I trust my 3.5 son to stay alone while I go to the basement for the laundry. But I make him wear a helmet on his tricycle: it's not because I never got brain damage or concussion on my bike when I was the kid that it won't happen to him.

[simon_ch]

I couldn't bring kids up in a place where they're treated like babies, and that does include large parts of Asia too. I had the great fortune to do a lot of stupid things as a kid, take responsability and learn from it from a young age on. My parents were sometimes worried but never overprotective, we played on the street where occasionally cars passed every day, we just established a warning system and nothing ever happened. We took care of the younger ones and everyone would play outside, no parents in sight. That's the way it should be and I want it no other way when I have a family. No way I'd drive my kid to school every day, or force him/her to stay at home fearing he/she might harm her-himself.

[ullainga]

	Quote:	simon_ch
	I couldn't bring kids up in a place where they're treated like babies, and that does include large parts of Asia too. I had the great fortune to do a lot of stupid things as a kid, take responsability and learn from it from a young age on. My parents were sometimes worried but never overprotective, we played on the street where occasionally cars passed every day, we just established a warning system and nothing ever happened. We took care of the younger ones and everyone would play outside, no parents in sight. That's the way it should be and I want it no other way when I have a family. No way I'd drive my kid to school every day, or force him/her to stay at home fearing he/she might harm her-himself.

I agree, I grew up the same way - in the summer, kids were sent out in the morning, came back in the evening. And I cannot remember any serious accidents happening to any of my childhood friends at that time, altough we did all the stupid things kids do - playing on building sites and scrapyards and similar. Of course we made our own way to the school and I was babysitting my sister when I was 7, not needing a babysitter when I was 14, like in many other places. So I'm very happy that Switzerland has similar attitudes.

[PaperMoon2]

	Quote:	menace
	This thread has been split from SOS :(, how could I deal with 2 little kids alone for 8 days? This isn't made up, or a value judgement; I know of Swiss who strap their one year old to the bed so they can go out and leave him in the house. I wouldn't do it personally, but apparently the attitude is somewhat different here. Who am I to tell them how to bring up their kids? I hear they don't tell kids not to climb trees either, or sue the council (sorry, Germinder) when they trip over the pavement. I'm wonder whether all the people laughing at this are laughing from personal knowledge or experience...

OMG!!! That picture is funny but the story OMG! You can't do that!

	Quote:	MarieZug
	Don't you mean they use a Zewi blanket ? http://www.zewiundbebe-jou.ch/ Isn't it classed as child abuse in the eyes of the law to leave your kids without supervision? I have heard of friends of friends getting fined by the police when their pre-teens were home alone and tried to cook a meal. They started a fire and the fire brigade needed to be called to put it out. Social services was called and checked up on them for a few months too.

Yeah you can't leae children alone like that.

	Quote:	MusicChick
	There has been a case in USA recently, when visiting tourists from Switzerland actually left their sleeping small baby in bed and got out of the hotel to get some dinner in a restaurant. I don't remember the story well, the hotel service found the baby alone in the hotel room, called the director and police and charges were made against the Swiss couple. They argued that there is a cultural difference, haha...I think the charges were later on dismissed. I heard it a few months ago on WRS, maybe it is in their archive, still. Cultural difference ma as*..

Wow OMG! No you can't do that in the USA! That is a no-no! Yeah that is a big cultural difference! That is very interesting!

	Quote:	kodokan
	Don't get me wrong, I really like the freedom here to leave your kids briefly at home alone without someone calling social services. I'm happy to leave my 10 yr old for 1-2 hours (he's sensible, knows how to use the phone, knows he's not allowed to attempt to chop any food, there are always neighbours around) and even my 6 yr old is good for 5-10 mins whilst I pop out for bread (she's a spookily well-behaved child and my trip is carefully timed to coincide with her favourite TV show). There are, however, a significant number of mums at my school who pretty much always leave their younger child napping whilst they nip out to pick up the older one from school in the afternoon. Note that 'nipping' would involve being out of the house for at least 20 mins, and that the children concerned are 2-3 years old. We're not talking cot-bound 6 monthers here. Although I think the crazy school hours have driven this particular cultural difference - if you have to be out of the house from 1.45-2.15pm, then again 3.15-3.45pm, then when CAN your toddler nap? Mine would have been demented without a daily 2-3 hour sleep. Rock... hard place... kodokan

Wew!! OMG! I can not even think of doing that!

	Quote:	amaraya
	it's actually not really that unheard of in the u.s either. my brothers and i stayed home often- and even my previous neighbors left their 4 daughters home alone, the oldest being 9. we leave my son (9) home once in a blue moon, but we're quite strict about not having friends over, not going out when we're not home, no stove, knives, etc. he actually likes it- makes him feel quite grownup and he takes it very seriously. but, it also helps that we've got great neighbors that we could count on if he needed their help. i guess it all depends upon the circumstances. also, there's the difference of leaving a kid home for different reasons- like going out and leaving a 2 month old? that's just insanity. but my mama told me once when she lived in germany she would babysit her neighbors 6 month old. the parents would tell her that when the baby was asleep, she could just lock the door and go back home. the problem was, that once the door was locked she couldn't get back in needless to say, my mom always stayed up and waited for them to get home.

Wow! This is very interesting! That is amazing the cultural difference in this!

	Quote:	5AVeci
	In some countries 4-5 year old can walk alone to kindergarden, play without much supervision outdoors, make his/hers bed, make some basic food, etc. While in some other countries they might still be in pushchairs, unable to do a single thing on their own... Of course, everywhere there's a peadophile, molester or kidnapper around the corner

OMG! Not 4-5yr olds! LOL! That is a big difference! I never walked to or from school alone at that age. And was never home alone at that age. Wow! That is interesting! I think I was 12yrsold before ever being left home alone and that was for short periods of time not like parents going out of town or anything. This is very interesting!

[simon_ch]

Try not to do so many full-quotes please papermoon.

[olygirl]

Parents don't want to raise their kids in fear. The freedom of being a kid is more important than the possibility of something happening to them. The term "helicopter parents" is still relatively unknown here.

[PaperMoon2]

	Quote:	Mrs. Doolittle
	Did she leave you a key incase you heard something? Maybe the world was a better place before baby monitors when parents hired babysitters. For a babysitter is was a great excuse to do homework and get paid.

That's what I was wondering OMG!

	Quote:	simon_ch
	Of course things happen, but if you treat a kid like a baby he'll behave as one. We had accidents, cuts, burns, whatever, and just dealt with it, kids aren't stupid, we knew when we had to go to the doctor, and yes, often we'd go alone with our friends and tell our mum later, hoping she'd not get angry. Go to India for a healthy dose of reality, and you'll quickly realize there is no reason why you should treat your kid like an imbecile.

You went to the doctor alone? OMG! I can't imagine the things I'm reading in this thread. OMG! LOL!

	Quote:	simon_ch
	Try not to do so many full-quotes please papermoon.

Oooh okay. No problem.

[Mélusine]

	Quote:	olygirl
	Parents don't want to raise their kids in fear. The freedom of being a kid is more important than the possibility of something happening to them. The term "helicopter parents" is still relatively unknown here.

Indeed, what is a 'helicopter parent'??????

[simon_ch]

	Quote:	PaperMoon2
	You went to the doctor alone? OMG! I can't imagine the things I'm reading in this thread. OMG! LOL!

Well it's something my mum wasn't too happy about either, but we kids thought it'd be better if the doctor calls her himself and sais it's alright, rather than us showing up with a bloody thumb or something. Since little cuts or so were commonplace we were never too much worried about a bit of pain, and more afraid of our mums or having to stay inside for the rest of the day. What's also interesting is that our parents (of all kids on the street) weren't partisan towards their own kids at all, they'd come and ask the rest of us when one of their kids went home whinging about one of us. We were a great bunch of kids I think, and the lot all turned fine, unlike the spoilt single kids who can't get dirty or do something stupid and are dependant like babies.

[olygirl]

	Quote:	Mélusine
	Indeed, what is a 'helicopter parent'??????

Taken from Wikipedia:

Helicopter parents are so named because, like helicopters, they hover closely overhead, rarely out of reach, whether their children need them or not. In Scandinavia, this phenomenon is known as curling parenthood and describes parents who attempt to sweep all obstacles out of the paths of their children. It is also called "overparenting". Parents try to resolve their child's problems, and try to stop them coming to harm by keeping them out of dangerous situations[2][3].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_parents

[swisscath]

On more than a couple of occasions have I seen small babies left in cars here. I admit I used to do it in the UK. The car was in our driveway, the windows would be open, and I’d sit in the front room overlooking the car.
But here I’ve seen babies in cars alone with no mother in sight.
One, was the other week, a very small baby left alone in the car in a poorly lit underground coop car park. It was over the lunch period so there were a cars going in and out, who would have known if someone had decided to take it?
The other incident which really concerned me, so much that I waited with the baby until the mother arrived so I could bollock her, was a small child about 18 months old, alone and asleep in the car. It was an outdoor carpark, which was out of site of the shops. The car was in the sunshine, the windows weren’t open and the baby was covered in sweat. Luckily I had an umbrella in the car to try and shade it. I mentioned to a passer by, how could someone leave a child like this, and she just looked at me and shrugged. 15 mins later, the mother came out with her other 2 children in tow. I told her to get the car open immediately. The child was only just rousable, and so very hot. We had to strip him down and try to cool him. She said it was hard to do the shopping with all 3 , and he was asleep so she left him. I think she got my point quite clearly when I told her how irresponsible and dangerous it was. Amazing how some women won’t leave their handbags in the car, but would leave their tiny defenceless children.

[summerrain]

	Quote:	simon_ch
	My parents once tried to hire a babysitter, the 4 of us thought she was horrible so we lured her into the kitchen and locked the door, my older brother was 7yrs old back then. We then laughed our little asses off when she started screaming and shouting (the babysitter was a teenager herself) and went upstairs to watch telly until my parents arrived. From then on we had no more babysitter and we behaved pretty well apart from the mess we'd usually leave in the kitchen from our "cooking/baking experiments".

I am still laughing at this story. Too funny!

Personally, I think it depends on the age of the child. My husband's boss and his wife leaves their 3 year old at home to sleep whilst they head out in the night. My mouth almost dropped to the ground when she told me that they usually do that. I mean, what happens if there's a fire? no matter how minute the chances are, I think children that age should never be left unattended.

But kids who are older and are capable of proper speech, I would encourage that as it cultivates independance. When I was 9, and my younger sister around 2, my mum started leaving us at home alone whilst she goes out for errands or an afternoon with her friends. Some people call that irresponsible but I thank her for that - I get to pinch my sister without getting told off.

[PaperMoon2]

	Quote:	swisscath
	On more than a couple of occasions have I seen small babies left in cars here. I admit I used to do it in the UK. The car was in our driveway, the windows would be open, and I’d sit in the front room overlooking the car. But here I’ve seen babies in cars alone with no mother in sight. One, was the other week, a very small baby left alone in the car in a poorly lit underground coop car park. It was over the lunch period so there were a cars going in and out, who would have known if someone had decided to take it? The other incident which really concerned me, so much that I waited with the baby until the mother arrived so I could bollock her, was a small child about 18 months old, alone and asleep in the car. It was an outdoor carpark, which was out of site of the shops. The car was in the sunshine, the windows weren’t open and the baby was covered in sweat. Luckily I had an umbrella in the car to try and shade it. I mentioned to a passer by, how could someone leave a child like this, and she just looked at me and shrugged. 15 mins later, the mother came out with her other 2 children in tow. I told her to get the car open immediately. The child was only just rousable, and so very hot. We had to strip him down and try to cool him. She said it was hard to do the shopping with all 3 , and he was asleep so she left him. I think she got my point quite clearly when I told her how irresponsible and dangerous it was. Amazing how some women won’t leave their handbags in the car, but would leave their tiny defenceless children.

Yeah that is crazy to leave a baby in a car like that. OMG!

	Quote:	summerrain
	I am still laughing at this story. Too funny! Personally, I think it depends on the age of the child. My husband's boss and his wife leaves their 3 year old at home to sleep whilst they head out in the night. My mouth almost dropped to the ground when she told me that they usually do that. I mean, what happens if there's a fire? no matter how minute the chances are, I think children that age should never be left unattended. But kids who are older and are capable of proper speech, I would encourage that as it cultivates independance. When I was 9, and my younger sister around 2, my mum started leaving us at home alone whilst she goes out for errands or an afternoon with her friends. Some people call that irresponsible but I thank her for that - I get to pinch my sister without getting told off.

Really? Interesting!

[MarieZug]

	Quote:	swisscath
	On more than a couple of occasions have I seen small babies left in cars here. I admit I used to do it in the UK. The car was in our driveway, the windows would be open, and I’d sit in the front room overlooking the car. But here I’ve seen babies in cars alone with no mother in sight. One, was the other week, a very small baby left alone in the car in a poorly lit underground coop car park. It was over the lunch period so there were a cars going in and out, who would have known if someone had decided to take it? The other incident which really concerned me, so much that I waited with the baby until the mother arrived so I could bollock her, was a small child about 18 months old, alone and asleep in the car. It was an outdoor carpark, which was out of site of the shops. The car was in the sunshine, the windows weren’t open and the baby was covered in sweat. Luckily I had an umbrella in the car to try and shade it. I mentioned to a passer by, how could someone leave a child like this, and she just looked at me and shrugged. 15 mins later, the mother came out with her other 2 children in tow. I told her to get the car open immediately. The child was only just rousable, and so very hot. We had to strip him down and try to cool him. She said it was hard to do the shopping with all 3 , and he was asleep so she left him. I think she got my point quite clearly when I told her how irresponsible and dangerous it was. Amazing how some women won’t leave their handbags in the car, but would leave their tiny defenceless children.

The number of mums i've seen here sitting at least 10 meters away from their kids (< 4 years old) swimming in the kiddie pool, you'd think babies grow on trees.

[the_clangers]

	Quote:	MarieZug
	The number of mums i've seen here sitting at least 10 meters away from their kids (< 4 years old) swimming in the kiddie pool, you'd think babies grow on trees.

It takes more than 30 seconds for oxygen starvation to cause brain damage.
As long as you never take you eyes off of your child for longer than, say 20 seconds, you have more than enough time to move the 10 meters.

I can promise you that every time I have had to move fast to keep my daughter from getting hurt I am surprised at how fast I can move. I am also surprised how much it hurts later as I usually rip muscles moving at those speeds. Now that I am a bit older, I try and keep the distance/reaction time down a bit, just to make it easier on my body.

Brian.

[MusicChick]

Hm, thanks for the groan, simon. There is a lot of static going on in this thread, I have to say. Helicopter parents are annoying, that's for sure. To get all possible obstacles from the kid's horizon sounds rather...contraproductive.

I am all for independence of kids, I was one of them, it is so healthy to support your kid at this and trust him/her. We all have a dif limits in terms to when we feel comfortable to leave our kids alone, I would feel completely ok to hop for mail or papers if our kiddo was 5, leave her for her homework and housework at 9ish, etc..Just like I was. Some do not like that idea, it is completely their business and who am I to comment on that. I regularly went for my dad's beer with a giant pitcher to a pub at 4, allowed to lick the foam. It did me good, I am not too big on beer, ick.

What's annoying are those brainfarts that I have witnessed here, that come from lack of common sense or plain laziness. It has nothing to do with some master plan on kid independance. I have also seen a small kid locked in a car in parking lot, kids out of car seats, little babies left roasting in direct heat and sun, looking like cherries..Newborns with no socks and no blankets at -5. I am not saying it is different elsewhere, but when I recall similar cases back home, a kid alone in the house at 3yrs for a certain time span, those folks were actually accused of negligence and had to face charges, which I agree with..The fact authorities are so lax about this here is not a matter of common sense but more overall attitude to kids, childraising and priorities. That's what my post was about, two months old baby left alone in a hotel room is not left there because its parents want to support its independence. A 3yr old kid neither, at that age no kid has any idea why parents abandoned him/her in an empty apartment. To try to defend yourself if you were a guilty parent saying we do it like this at your home country actually sounds pretty weak. People do not do things like that here on day to day basis, not the folks we hang out with. Intellectually challenged, lazy or careless people do things like that.

The fact that some of the peeps here went through all sorts of adventures and survived, well, we all did, didn't we...That's a completely different point to make. All it takes is that one bad-luck moment, parents either want to risk or they don't, up to them. There is a huge difference between kids, too, so to make it sounds ok just because someone needs to sound like a child hero here, ha! It's rather cute. But I wouldn't make some overall rule about safety and kids for everyone. I know a lot of much older kids that I would strongly supervise, since they can not only hurt themselves but do hurt others on regular basis. I would not call moms neurotic if they feel queezy about leaving their few months old babies completely unsupervised, the moms I know usually hop out for a couple of hours to dine and wine if their infant is securely babysat. I would call them responsible and loving people.

[Kiwi Lad]

Discussion started last night with partners family (all teachers) telling me that a lot of kids go home for lunch on their own and also after school until their parents come home from work possibly 2-3 hours later. Some of these children are 5-10 years old.

Being from NZ I would never have thought this happened. Is it socially and legally allowed and accepted here?

Thoughts?