[Thread split] Home alone -- the Swiss view on leaving children unattended

[menace]

This thread has been split from SOS :(, how could I deal with 2 little kids alone for 8 days?

	Quote:	phdoofus
	Duct tape.

This isn't made up, or a value judgement; I know of Swiss who strap their one year old to the bed so they can go out and leave him in the house. I wouldn't do it personally, but apparently the attitude is somewhat different here. Who am I to tell them how to bring up their kids? I hear they don't tell kids not to climb trees either, or sue the council (sorry, Germinder) when they trip over the pavement.

I'm wonder whether all the people laughing at this are laughing from personal knowledge or experience...

[MarieZug]

	Quote:	menace
	This isn't made up, or a value judgement; I know of Swiss who strap their one year old to the bed so they can go out and leave him in the house. I wouldn't do it personally, but apparently the attitude is somewhat different here. Who am I to tell them how to bring up their kids? I hear they don't tell kids not to climb trees either, or sue the council (sorry, Germinder) when they trip over the pavement. I'm wonder whether all the people laughing at this are laughing from personal knowledge or experience...

Don't you mean they use a Zewi blanket ? http://www.zewiundbebe-jou.ch/

Isn't it classed as child abuse in the eyes of the law to leave your kids without supervision? I have heard of friends of friends getting fined by the police when their pre-teens were home alone and tried to cook a meal. They started a fire and the fire brigade needed to be called to put it out. Social services was called and checked up on them for a few months too.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	MarieZug
	Don't you mean they use a Zewi blanket ? http://www.zewiundbebe-jou.ch/ Isn't it classed as child abuse in the eyes of the law to leave your kids without supervision? I have heard of friends of friends getting fined by the police when their pre-teens were home alone and tried to cook a meal. They started a fire and the fire brigade needed to be called to put it out. Social services was called and checked up on them for a few months too.

There has been a case in USA recently, when visiting tourists from Switzerland actually left their sleeping small baby in bed and got out of the hotel to get some dinner in a restaurant. I don't remember the story well, the hotel service found the baby alone in the hotel room, called the director and police and charges were made against the Swiss couple. They argued that there is a cultural difference, haha...I think the charges were later on dismissed. I heard it a few months ago on WRS, maybe it is in their archive, still. Cultural difference ma as*..

[kodokan]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	There has been a case in USA recently, when visiting tourists from Switzerland actually left their sleeping small baby in bed and got out of the hotel to get some dinner in a restaurant. I don't remember the story well, the hotel service found the baby alone in the hotel room, called the director and police and charges were made against the Swiss couple. They argued that there is a cultural difference, haha...I think the charges were later on dismissed. I heard it a few months ago on WRS, maybe it is in their archive, still. Cultural difference ma as*..

Don't get me wrong, I really like the freedom here to leave your kids briefly at home alone without someone calling social services. I'm happy to leave my 10 yr old for 1-2 hours (he's sensible, knows how to use the phone, knows he's not allowed to attempt to chop any food, there are always neighbours around) and even my 6 yr old is good for 5-10 mins whilst I pop out for bread (she's a spookily well-behaved child and my trip is carefully timed to coincide with her favourite TV show).

There are, however, a significant number of mums at my school who pretty much always leave their younger child napping whilst they nip out to pick up the older one from school in the afternoon.

Note that 'nipping' would involve being out of the house for at least 20 mins, and that the children concerned are 2-3 years old. We're not talking cot-bound 6 monthers here.

Although I think the crazy school hours have driven this particular cultural difference - if you have to be out of the house from 1.45-2.15pm, then again 3.15-3.45pm, then when CAN your toddler nap? Mine would have been demented without a daily 2-3 hour sleep. Rock... hard place...

kodokan

[Carlos R]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	There has been a case in USA recently, when visiting tourists from Switzerland actually left their sleeping small baby in bed and got out of the hotel to get some dinner in a restaurant. I don't remember the story well, the hotel service found the baby alone in the hotel room, called the director and police and charges were made against the Swiss couple. They argued that there is a cultural difference, haha...I think the charges were later on dismissed. I heard it a few months ago on WRS, maybe it is in their archive, still. Cultural difference ma as*..

Erm. Not going to comment on leaving kids at home specifically, but wouldn't the more alarming case of the McCann's be a more relevant example of what could go wrong when leaving children alone in a foreign location (by foreign I mean anywhere but home or a speciality venue, i.e. school/creche) etc.?

I would rather have charges pressed against me that this happening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappe...deleine_McCann

[ljm]

	Quote:	kodokan
	Don't get me wrong, I really like the freedom here to leave your kids briefly at home alone without someone calling social services. I'm happy to leave my 10 yr old for 1-2 hours (he's sensible, knows how to use the phone, knows he's not allowed to attempt to chop any food, there are always neighbours around) and even my 6 yr old is good for 5-10 mins whilst I pop out for bread (she's a spookily well-behaved child and my trip is carefully timed to coincide with her favourite TV show).

I would not leave toddlers or pre-schoolers alone, not even for a minute. At that age you never know, kids can do crazy stuff.

But children aged 10 is a different story. I used to stay alone all day, cook dinner and clean house waiting for my parents to come back from work when I was ten. Children that age worked in factories and in the fields not so long ago -- they actually still do in many parts of the world. I certainly hope that I will trust my kid not to jump out of the window or set the house on fire when they are that age or close.

[Cashboy]

	Quote:	ljm
	I would not leave toddlers or pre-schoolers alone, not even for a minute. At that age you never know, kids can do crazy stuff. But children aged 10 is a different story. I used to stay alone all day, cook dinner and clean house waiting for my parents to come back from work when I was ten. Children that age worked in factories and in the fields not so long ago -- they actually still do in many parts of the world. I certainly hope that I will trust my kid not to jump out of the window or set the house on fire when they are that age or close.

It is amazing how life and the parameters have changed.
I was 7 when I used to walk home from school. I used to stand on a crate to open the front door to be able to get the key in the door to open it. My sister, 4 years older, would arrive home from secondary one and a half hours later. My parents used to go on holiday without us for a week when she was 16 and I was 12 and we loved it.

Now children are supposedly not even safe alone for 10 minutes and yet reading the newspapers they appear to be terrorising adults, having sex and getting pregnant and doing class A drugs at 12.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	There has been a case in USA recently, when visiting tourists from Switzerland actually left their sleeping small baby in bed and got out of the hotel to get some dinner in a restaurant. I don't remember the story well, the hotel service found the baby alone in the hotel room, called the director and police and charges were made against the Swiss couple. They argued that there is a cultural difference, haha...I think the charges were later on dismissed. I heard it a few months ago on WRS, maybe it is in their archive, still. Cultural difference ma as*..

http://gothamist.com/2004/08/30/nyc_..._your_baby.php

Here, I foud the article about the incident. The original article's link does not exist anymore, though. One would really expect from those folks to have some kind of common sense, but a 2mo old left alone in a hotel room? WTF...Too sad.

I totally agree with 9/10 yr olds being left to themselves for a couple of hours to do their homework, some housechores, etc...I think it is educational. We stayed at home alone all the time since our medical parents were too busy, but we had a system when the oldest one was a bodyguard and security captain, I was the chef and homework supervisor and the little one was the nagging queen, haha. It always works better when they are in a pack. But a single kid I would not leave alone bellow 8yr since they can panic if something dangerous happens, not that they would not be able to cope most of the time, but I think let them be kids and not pawn our responsibilty onto them...So, a single kid bellow 8 would not be left alone to fend for themselves in my house, just like a pyjama party or a sleepover for older kiddos, you never know what they think of when there is more of them classmates....

But a 2mo old? What a lovely brainfart, and in the US when kids can't even fart on their own without child's services being allarmed, pardon my language.

I can't even imagine leaving a 2mo old alone in a crib for a couple of hours and those were more than just a mere couple of hours, even in some yodelly safe boondock village when the infant is sobbing tuned in with bucolic cows while the neighbor is overlooking the safety from the neighboring house. I kinda do not think it is a matter of different culture per se but a different level of importance that the culture places on kids in general. There are other things that make me think so. Buh. 2mo old, probably ain't even a human to worry about...vraiment.

[NotAllThere]

I'm just glad my eldest is 18 now. ( We've changed our will so he's the guardian of our younger kids if we both die ).

When my wife was 10 years old, she was doing the cooking for her family while mum and dad were out to work. But she wasn't born in the West.

[amaraya]

it's actually not really that unheard of in the u.s either. my brothers and i stayed home often- and even my previous neighbors left their 4 daughters home alone, the oldest being 9. we leave my son (9) home once in a blue moon, but we're quite strict about not having friends over, not going out when we're not home, no stove, knives, etc. he actually likes it- makes him feel quite grownup and he takes it very seriously. but, it also helps that we've got great neighbors that we could count on if he needed their help.

i guess it all depends upon the circumstances. also, there's the difference of leaving a kid home for different reasons- like going out and leaving a 2 month old? that's just insanity. but my mama told me once when she lived in germany she would babysit her neighbors 6 month old. the parents would tell her that when the baby was asleep, she could just lock the door and go back home. the problem was, that once the door was locked she couldn't get back in
needless to say, my mom always stayed up and waited for them to get home.

[phdoofus]

Holy crap! I started a thread in absentia!
Used to walk to kindergarden alone when I was 5. Since both mom and dad worked we also walked home from school and messed around the house and played outside until they came home. It wasn't child abuse, they'd raised us to be children they could trust not to burn the house down.

[the_clangers]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	[URL]I totally agree with 9/10 yr olds being left to themselves for a couple of hours to do their homework, some housechores, etc...I think it is educational. We stayed at home alone all the time since our medical parents were too busy, but we had a system when the oldest one was a bodyguard and security captain, I was the chef and homework supervisor and the little one was the nagging queen, haha. It always works better when they are in a pack. But a single kid I would not leave alone bellow 8yr since they can panic if something dangerous happens, not that they would not be able to cope most of the time, but I think let them be kids and not pawn our responsibilty onto them...So, a single kid bellow 8 would not be left alone to fend for themselves in my house, just like a pyjama party or a sleepover for older kiddos, you never know what they think of when there is more of them classmates.... But a 2mo old? What a lovely brainfart, and in the US when kids can't even fart on their own without child's services being allarmed, pardon my language. I can't even imagine leaving a 2mo old alone in a crib for a couple of hours and those were more than just a mere couple of hours, even in some yodelly safe boondock village when the infant is sobbing tuned in with bucolic cows while the neighbor is overlooking the safety from the neighboring house. I kinda do not think it is a matter of different culture per se but a different level of importance that the culture places on kids in general. There are other things that make me think so. Buh. 2mo old, probably ain't even a human to worry about...vraiment.

Of course, the time that my brother and I played fire rescue and lowered our younger brother out the window tied to a chair. Oh, well, no harm, no foul. (Phew! Kids will be kids, sometimes.)

As far as the US and the CH, you would think that there would be a reasonable middle ground, wouldn't you? Of course, as always, it seems that you would be wrong.

Brian.

[menace]

	Quote:	Cashboy
	Now children are supposedly not even safe alone for 10 minutes and yet reading the newspapers they appear to be terrorising adults, having sex and getting pregnant and doing class A drugs at 12.

That'll be why they're not safe, then

[ManWithAVan]

I don't think it's a Swiss thing at all, there are some who have left their kids alone from all countries, personally I think a "kid" should always be looked after but at what age does that kid become a young adult and how long is "leaving them alone" - putting the bins out, popping to get some milk or a night down the pub?
Probably anything involving duct tape is a little OTT in most peoples opinions, including the Swiss.

[Mélusine]

I don't know about other countries, but perhaps in CH this is due to a higher feeling of 'security', because of the low crime rate.

My grandmum told me that she always left her babies in their prams at the entrance of the supermarket, next to other prams, to buy her groceries quietly... Imagine doing that now?

A friend of mine, when on holidays, usually lets her toddler sleep in the room while they go have supper in the hotel restaurant...

Another woman I know left her baby at home about 1-2 hours every day to go buy the groceries since the day the child was born... Alternatively, she also lets him in the car in the parking...

I must say I find the examples shocking, especially the last one. I'm a bit of a chicken-mum, but I wouldn't be able to leave my baby/toddler alone at home. Imagine what could happen: a fire, a bout of vomiting and gagging... Sure, the odds are that nothing will happen, but if it does, you'll have to leave with the remorse for the rest of your life...

[meloncollie]

I was a bit taken aback when a neighbor - who I really didn't know - popped by one evening, baby intercom in hand. She was going out for dinner, and would I mind listening in on the baby every once in a while?

I offered to go over to her flat to babysit while she was gone, but she said no, she really wasn't comfortable with strangers in her home, listening in on the baby was all that was required...

I have no idea if this is a common practice or not, but since then I've been asked to do the same by other Swiss neighbors. As the person left sort-of-but-not-really-in-charge, it made me very uncomfortable.

[simon_ch]

My parents once tried to hire a babysitter, the 4 of us thought she was horrible so we lured her into the kitchen and locked the door, my older brother was 7yrs old back then. We then laughed our little asses off when she started screaming and shouting (the babysitter was a teenager herself) and went upstairs to watch telly until my parents arrived. From then on we had no more babysitter and we behaved pretty well apart from the mess we'd usually leave in the kitchen from our "cooking/baking experiments".

I walked to pre-Kindergarten alone at the age of 4, we went to the forest alone, made a fire and grilled Cervelats at the age of 5, I of course had a Swiss army knive at the age of 6 with which I cut myself frequently and tons of other things. I like the fact that we aren't such neurotic, anxious nutjobs as American parents seem to be here in Switzerland. But as someone else said, it's a cultural thing.

[Mrs. Doolittle]

Leaving a child/children in the apartment while going down to the shared laundry room, going down to the letterbox, or taking out the garbage, these are all examples of leaving children alone for short periods while you are nearby which for some may seem perfectly acceptable. For others, minutes alone is minutes too many. It's all well and good if nothing happens but there are no guarantees.

[olygirl]

The Swiss are quite relaxed on leaving their kids at home and amazingly enough, it is rare that something negative happens.

However, about 4 years ago, my husband wanted me to go on a long bike ride with him and leave our 8 and 10 year old at home. For some reason, I didn't feel comfortable with that and stayed home. A half hour later, my son started complaining about abdominal pains. An hour later, we were at the doctor's for an emergency appointment. One and a half hours later, my son was in the hospital with appendicitis. My husband finally made it home from his bike ride 2 hours later.

	Quote:	simon_ch
	I walked to pre-Kindergarten alone at the age of 4, we went to the forest alone, made a fire and grilled Cervelats at the age of 5, I of course had a Swiss army knive at the age of 6 with which I cut myself frequently and tons of other things. I like the fact that we aren't such neurotic, anxious nutjobs as American parents seem to be here in Switzerland. But as someone else said, it's a cultural thing.

In some countries 4-5 year old can walk alone to kindergarden, play without much supervision outdoors, make his/hers bed, make some basic food, etc. While in some other countries they might still be in pushchairs, unable to do a single thing on their own...

Of course, everywhere there's a peadophile, molester or kidnapper around the corner