I was wondering what are other EF member's experiences with working in CH as a woman, in particular in finance.

Do you have any companies you'd like to warn others about?

I do feel like I am often confronted with two approaches: I'm either a little girl that couldn't possible understand the subject or I shouldn't be here in the first place and am interrupting a boys' game. I don't get this from the people I work with in the immediate surroundings, but outside of the department. With the people I had to work inensly, I've definitely gained their respect (although most of them are expats themselves now that I think about it).

On a funny note (I can laugh now, though I was pretty irritated when I heard it), a "southern" colleague once told me that I dress too nice to like numbers.

After seven years here I don't think it is any more discriminatory towards women than anywhere else. I find employers are suspicious of married childless women because they wonder when kids are going to happen and/or find it not normal that a thirty-fortysomething woman hasn't got to baby making, but other than that, everything else is par for the course.

Stuff that has happened to me that I would consider gender discrimination here could just as well happen anywhere else- underestimations of competency or intelligence next to a male colleague of a similar skill set, off-color jokes about sex lives due to no kids, "making coffee" because I'm the girl, etc. So I just deal. I'm not saying it is the Rainbowland of Equality, but I don't personally think it is any worse in CH than I dealt with in France or Belgium or the US.

I've actually had more issues with weight discrimination (getting told what to eat in the canteen, getting told that I needed to lose weight for a promotion, getting told I was too fat for my job) than anything I saw as "gender" related.

Ehm, on this subject, if I can quote myself...

I must say that it was an isolated instance, and I do think that it is by chance that it happened in Switzerland rather than in another place, it really could have happened anywhere. Stupidity has no particular nationality, religion, color, etc. Thankfully my boss and my teammates are cool and stand by me always when and if such unpleasant things should happen.

My teammates joke that I "dramatically raise" the diversity ratio in the team: the rest are all Swiss (German speaking) and German, older than me, and male. Funny.

Without paying too much attention to my age, I've worked in the finance industry in Zurich for.. er.. well.. since 1999. Directly before that, I was in politics(!) and THAT was sexist(!)

In the rare instances that men have dared get a little sexist with me, I have usually given as good as I got

Just like any dog-pack, you have to learn and earn your place.

It may be more because you are young, rather than because you are a girl.

If you are confident, and good, you just beat them with their own rhythm stick
They may also just be playing with you- seeing what you are made of. Don't take yourself so seriously.

Don't give up- you're setting the path for those that come behind you.

PS: you also dont have to act like a man.. who would want to stoop that low

(too many "donts" in that.. but i can no longer think coherently today..)

i would think finance is a far better industry for women to work compared to drilling. have worked with drilling guys from the rig where they have acted as if they have never seen a female!! but i guess its all about earning the respect. once they see you are young, they just assume that they know better (thanks to the grey hairs) once you start proving your worth, am sure you will automatically gain the respect and of course the acceptance

I also feel the "odd one" in my job (IT) sometimes; I did not experience any real discrimination, just a kind of suprise or suspicion in the worst case. Actually as soon as I landed in Switzerland I wondered where were the swiss women, as most of my female colleagues are not swiss.
Having also a small daughter I am even odder, maybe they are wondering why I am so mean and leave her with babysitters instead of staying at home.
Actually I wanted to go with her to a gym training where kids and parents could exercise and have fun together, but I couldn't: the session "Kid and Dad" was on Saturday morning but the session "Kid and Mum" on Thursday morning...

I've always worked with a lot of men and have experienced so far in 30 years of working in Finance, HR and general Administration never more than some gentle teasing.

So why didn't you just join the group "Kid and Dad"? Wouldn't that be just the natural thing to do?

You're right, but as I am damn lazy I took this as an excuse for not going to the gym

For comparison I have experiences from working in Poland and the US and I can't say I've had any issues there. Getting discouraged is definitely not an option, I haven't invested in my own development to start doubting myself now (which is not to say that a certain amount of doubt is a bad thing since I find it can push you to go that extra step in making sure you did a darn fine job). But to say that I never get irritated would be a lie. I think the most frustrating experience was when I finished a major presentation and all questions were directed at a male colleague (present at the meeting but not presenting, not from my team, who did not work on the presentation and if anything, contacted me in cases of questions).

In any case, thanks for sharing and I wish everyone a very productive Wednesday

Swiss Frau Syndrome: women should be at home looking after the children and getting the meals ready.

Didn't anyone warn you about this?

No, I'm guessing it was not in my ex-partner's interest to mention such things when I was making my decision about moving here
What worries me more is that this phenomenon you're mentioning is even more strictly enforced by many women. I've seen this at work as well, woman becomes a mother and chooses to stay home but frowns on the working mothers (part and full time). Full time mother looks down upon the stay@home moms and part time moms who are obviously not serious enough about their careers. The part time moms seem to be getting "beating" from all over. But to be fair, this is not just a Swiss thing.
And the 2 hours lunch break for school kids who are expected to go back home... I quote "only kids from pathological families, where the mother was raising the kids alone or parents were alcoholics, had to stay at school"... I think this belongs to a different forum thread.

You've hit the nail on the head there...it really bugs me that I think we women are harder on each other than anyone else. Or maybe it is jealousy? I longingly look at you in the working world with awe and respect - wish I could be there. Beats vacuuming 25x a day and the house still looks the same (see if the kids were at day care, it wouldn't get dirty ). But then there are the days when I am SO glad I can sit in my PJs as long as I choose, go to school events, and the what not. I think the key is being happy yourself and as long as it works in your family than that is what matters. But still, there are the days when I think I should be working, and should be doing something to try and make it happen. But then those 3 kids get in the way and I can't imagine doing it and remaining sane! Maybe when the littlest one is a bit older (he is now 2.5) - but then I will be too old and too long out of the field to jump back in!

But yea, the 2 hour lunch breaks and no full day school make the childcare side of life that much more difficult! It's my excuse not to work

My mum was Swiss, and she always worked when we were children. When we were younger she worked locally - preparing lunches the night before, coming home for lunch, then back to work. As we grew older, she worked in a better job further afield- and we looked after ourselves at lunchtime. She worked for 2 reasons - to put 'butter on the spinach' as we say in French (pour mettre du beurre sur les épinards), but mainly because although she loved us very much, she was a very intelligent woman who needed more than kids and the kitchen sink - she had to use her brain and creativity in another context too. A real role model.

I agree it was much easier to go back to study, then work, in the UK- because of school hours and lunches - but I lived in a Stepford wives enclave at the time- and no other woman worked. I remember some of the mums saying they felt sorry for my kids as I'd put my studies and career before them, and should be home to support my husband's career, etc. Both our daughters totally agree that me working was great for all of us, for all sorts of reasons.

I'm sure there are ways and means to overcome school times, etc, for mums (well parents really, it defo does take two) - clubbing together and organising meals and supervision, etc, looking after each other's kids in turn, etc. It CAN be done - with a bit of imagination and effort, even here in CH.

I agree. Being a mum that gets to use her brain and creativity outside the home is the best thing for my family. I think that I would have gone mad spending 100% of my time at home cooking, doing laundry, cleaning up after the meals/snacks/bathroom accidents and feeling like I couldn't treat myself or having to budget ( )because I didn't have my own income.

Sure something can be done, but I'm from a totally different culture, so for me it seems so absurd that it's the parents who have to organize all this and work around the ridiculous school hours, totally incompatible with normal working hours. When it would make so much more sense the other way.
If a country is interested that people work and also have children, the school and childcare is organized to allow that - cheap subsidized childcare, school hours to fit in with working hours, school lunches, free after-school clubs and so on. Normal where I'm coming from.

In Switzerland, childcare and school hours seem to be made inconvenient on purpose, to keep women where they belong.

I have to agree. How many studies have been published on topics such as births per woman, women being able to work full time, etc., indicating that these are much more effective and efficient models. But only a few months back I remember reading in Blich am Abend an article on how well Norwegian kids perform on tests later in life and adapt to adulthood thanks to kindergardens. There was a response from the a woman in the conservative party, who basically branded all working mothers alcoholics and in need of mental care (she used much harsher words). Here, I really do get the impression that a working mother is a concept that is discouraged - depending on the job/salary the mom has, her entire income is going to pay for child care. With more than 2 children it would be simply to expensive.

Staying at home should be a choice. I can't wait to be a mom and not the type that kisses kids goodnight once the nanny put them in bed, but I also see myself as continuing to develop my personal and professional interests. Thatis how I was raised and that's the way I would be able to show my kids that a) I continue to grow as a person myself; b) I set an example for them on how we should always try to learn and remain curious. For that you need a great partner and a supportive environment, so that it's not any more difficult that it should be, since being a parent is already a huge responsibility and adjustment.

There are inexpensive after school and lunchtime care in most cities. Here they are known as Horts and cost next to nothing in Zug, 175 fr for the whole term's afternoon care from 2-6pm, no matter how many days you need to use. Lunch is per days with a meal. Other private places offer daycare for 15 Fr. an hour.

When I last inquired, I could only get lunch time care at the Hort 1 day a week. I saw no option than to dis-enroll, and spoke to the head of the Zug department of Schooling. She was really understanding and is also a working mum, agreeing that it was tough for working parents. Day schools are an option and we are applying for but they take only 12 kids. Local schools with their hours do make it tough for working parents and I think we are going to stick with a day school that's open until 6pm.

Edit> Sorry, meant to say "inexpensive". Next sentence> "Here they are known as Horts and cost next to nothing"

That is so true, two working parents are seen as an anomaly here, it simply does not fit in the traditional swiss culture. But I think they will have sooner or later to deal with it, and change their point of view.
It is a rich country, and it makes no sense to leave alone parents to deal with such an important issue as children's education. People should also make some pressure in the local communities, and not just struggle on their own; even if we are foreigners we are giving our contribution to the country, and our children are part of the country as well.

ullainga: I guess you are from Scandinavia, aren't you? Up there they really have another culture, hopefully the Swiss could learn something in this area from them!

In the Canton of Bern you pay between CHF 0.65 and CHF 11.20 per hour for public childcare, according to the income. I wouldn't call this expensive. If you earn a lot you pay a lot. Day schools in Switzerland would be an option if the taxpayer were prepared to pay for new schools and bigger building plots (if available). With the existing buildings it will mostly not be possible to integrate this system.

Exactly, this is the prevalent attitude - yes, it's tough, but the way things are is the way things are. Or, a I've heard, you simply get told that your place is at home anyway.