I JUST started my PhD at U of Geneva in June. Frankly I can barely see an end ANYWHERE but I'm sure that will come. I'm at the starting stages of my litterature review.

Thanks for sharing your stories everyone! There really should be a support group out there for doctoral students!

I took the scenic route on my way to my PhD. After my degree in the UK I decided to do a PhD in the US and ended up in Miami. Sun....sea....science....ah the good life! Then 2 years into my PhD, after doing the courses and the required teaching, my supervisor decided to leave the university for a non-academic position. My options were to find another lab or start over elsewhere. No one in the department was doing research that I was interested in (well one was but he was about to move to Nebraska). So I returned to the UK to do my PhD as it meant I could complete it in 3 years.

I've seen some very bright and intelligent people fail to complete their PhD. In the sciences it's not just about the knowledge. One colleague just couldn't get his experiments to work. Another guy who was a bit of a maths high flyer as he got into university in Canada when he was 14 and was already onto his PhD by 18, just sort of burnt-out.

Although a lot less common now, it used to be possible to get a PhD by publication in the UK. As an undergraduate on my year in industry I worked with a guy who was working on getting the required publications and he subsequently got a PhD. In my last job in the UK, another colleague got his PhD by publication about 4 years ago. Only a few universities still offer that option, and it can be very challenging, especially in industry, to be able to publish enough to qualify.

Well, I must confess that I am a bit envious of anyone dedicated enough to go on to get their PhD...

I have my Bachelor's in Art History and, before my interests turned more towards Physics, it was my dream and plan to go on to get my PhD in Art History with a focus on Buddhist art -- mainly so I could curate at a nice museum and/or teach at University level. But sadly, I strayed from my path and my dream never came true.

Now I am a work-from-home new Mommy, doing redundant work that really doesn't interest me at all.

*sigh*

Okay, now I think I need a drink.

Personally, my greatest dream is to be a work-from-home parent. But unfortunately, this has not been a trivial goal to acquire. This is the reason I decided to take the PhD route.

I've been to graduate school three times. I've completed the coursework for a PhD three times, one in biostatistics, then in behavioral decision theory, and finally mass communication. The first two times, I self-destructed on my comps due to epic test anxiety. And, it turns out that I have some learning issues, where under pressure, I self-destruct. But I didn't understand that till just a few years ago. Left with a master's the first time and a master's and a husband the second. An enormous chip on my shoulder at times, and angry that people I knew weren't as smart or creative as I were finishing. But they could focus.

The third time I did pass my comps and had my proposal well on its way, when I developed breast cancer. Took a year and a half off, and just a couple of weeks ago, decided not to continue.

The first trip, went straight through after undergrad. Second trip, I worked for a spinoff of Bell Labs and they had this program where, if accepted, you were excused from your job for at least 3 years, half salary and all expenses paid. And I was accepted. Third trip, bored with job, went part time, worked for an academic hospital, the hospital paid for my courses. I know how to get education paid for. I've had two main jobs in my life (over the past 25 years) - one where I used statistics and behavior to understand how people made decisions about technology products (e.g., telephones), and one where I did something similar in health care, as well as a crapload of admnistrative stuff.

But after the last year and a half, I no longer burn for my research, though it is rather interesting. I've got a few publications in decent journals, reasonable citation record for those articles. What I've learned is that it's not enough to be smart. You have to be able to focus, and you have to be able to chill, and you have to burn for your research. Even with a lot of spare time, I just didn't seek out the literature these past months. So I let it go. I don't regret any of the time I spent in my studies, either - I've accumulated a lot of interesting information, have some skills, and most recently, what I've learned about how we think helps me get through the uncertainty of cancer, and the less than fun experience of chemo and rads.

My husband is an academic, too. But he finished his PhD on the first go, and is now a professor at one of the unis. He's great at this (I am biased, obviously.). I met him when he'd just finished his PhD, and I've watched him transition through the ranks. He's still interested in what he does, has new ideas all the time, and remains productive. I'm more like a gadfly - short spurts of interest. Not really meant to be an academic, but curious nonetheless.

And it took a while for me to learn this, but even if you don't finish a degree, you gain knowledge, insights and skills that aren't a waste.

And all of this has led to my current position as SAHDM (stay at home dog mother). Though I am starting a company in the next couple of months. We'll see how it goes......

Ha ha... Not sure what your PhD is in, but I wish we could switch professions for a few days...

That is, unless your profession involves giving colonoscopies.

I got my PhD by publication after 30 years of research in industry. Had to go to Holland to find a willing prof. Actually he offered once he discovered that I hadn't got the covetted title. Main motivation was pride: I was fed up with the shame of having to own up that I was not, in fact, a Dr.

I felt I was cheating a bit. I was older than half the jury & have given dozens of talks, so it was no big deal.

Personally, I feel that PhDs are way over-rated. Lots of folk without them are brilliant and lots of folk with them, well, you wonder how they managed to get one. Once you've got one, you are cut out of most jobs, so think hard beforehand.

I've heard this before as well. However, if you are interested in a job which the PhD might cut you out of, why not just leave it out of your CV?

Worst case scenario, you have a blanks few years in your CV, if the PhD indeed hinders your chance of a certain employment. If that were the case I would leave out the formal degree, and state I was a research assistant only detailing the applicable transferable job skills.
Apart from getting lower salary for a good chunk of your young-adult life era, or becoming too focused or tunnel visioned on your topic, extra education is never a negative thing. It all depends what you put into it and what you take out of it as with any step or decision in life. If a PhD student spends their entire time focusing only on their small specific contribution to their field, or they take the time to network, expand, meet new people and experiences it is all up to the individual to make what they want out of it.
Again, no different than any other pathway decision in life.

Hello,
Did a PhD (France/UK), a post-doc (UK) and joined a company (FR/CH).
The PhD was by far the hardest job I ever done, it prepares you for anything.
I applied for grant so was funded.

Unless you keep chopping and changing your career, thats unlikely to happen. In my experience its the opposite, HR love to boast the fact that they are attracting PhD calibre recruits for graduate money (look how great we are ). Its us hiring managers who are a little more circumspect e.g. do I want a know-it-all who is going to make my life hell, or a young graduate who will do as they're told

Agreed. While getting my PhD (in molecular life sciences, long ago) I saw that a number of my co-aspirants were clearly not cut out for it. Nevertheless they got through. One problem is that Professors often dont like the idea of their students failing, poor reflection on them I suppose, so they carry crap students to the end and heave them bodily over the threshhold. The fact is, after more than a decade in academia I have never seen a student get failed.

Too many people get PhDs they dont deserve. Therefore, dont automatically assume it means anything. Trust your instincts, Luke.

DKH

My Ph.D. story:

I loved mathematics in high school (and I excelled at it).
I did my bachelor's degree at a small Canadian university.
I did my Master's at a top Canadian university.
I did my Ph.D. at a top US university.
I got a job in academia.
I got tenure.
I became a full professor (at a good Canadian university).

It worked just fine for me. But it wasn't always easy.
During my undergraduate degree, I worried about grades. I needed good grades so I would get a scholarship for graduate school. I got good grades. I got a great government scholarship.
During my Master's, I worried about not being admitted to a Ph.D. program at a good school. (In the end, I was accepted at the 3 US universities where I had applied. I chose Berkeley).
During my Ph.D., I always worried about my future. "Will I ever finish?" I did. "If I finish, will I get a job in academia?" I did.
I was stressed during the long years before getting tenure. "What will I do if I don't get tenure?" Eventually, I got tenure.
After tenure, I spent many years wondering if and when I would become full professor. Eventually, I was promoted to full professor.

All in all, I must have spent 25 years worrying.
I am finally at peace. I don't worry anymore.

Today I look at what some students have to go through and I wonder how and where they find the energy to do it. Often their Ph.D. supervisor has unrealistic expectation. Often they work in an area where the number of new Ph.D.'s way outnumbers the number of available academic positions.

I can't talk for the rest of of Europe, but in UK, there is no Master's requirement to do a Ph.D. If you have a good grade in your B.Sc. degree like a First class or 2.1, then at least for science subjects you can go straight for your Ph.D.

You will find the people who do Masters are either wanting to switch fields or are foreign students wanting an entry to the system. You can do a Masters in one year most of the time. As for the Ph.D. itself, officially it takes 3 years and that's usually how long the grant money lasts. But I know of very few people who actually finished in 3 years. I would say four years is more realistic. And I know of people who took 7 years or more!

Actually you can do both, a Phd in business management

OK, I'll share my story: started my career as an Indian Air Force officer, served six years, then plunged into another big adventure by signing up for a PhD at a leading Indian business school, with an intent to become an academic. Until then (in college and school) i had a very unexceptional track record , but research was my calling, I easily topped my doctoral courses (basically topped all courses I took, which I later learned is a record, never achieved before or after me in the school's history). Yet my dissertation was fraught with uncertainty, a nerve wracking experience, but eventually I pulled it off, I got rave reviews and viva was a smooth sail.

Then I landed a post doc at ETH Zurich. Salary was fabulous (at least I thought so, that Swiss phd and postdoc salaries are handsome; maybe because I have a different frame of reference. In my third year, I was getting 100k chf, which, perks and low taxes considered, is about the same as a US Assistant Prof's). I had all the time in the world to pursue climbing and other sports, the flexible time was priceless to me, I wouldn't trade it for a million francs.

Then I got a faculty position at one of the top universities in India (the counterpart of ETH, although it is not quite close, and the pay is muuuuch less now, but it is a tenured position), I still have the option to spend considerable time abroad on work (-cum climbing, already scheming my visit to CH this summer ).

Is Phd worth it? Well, it really is not for everyone. I have seen people with utterly modest backgrounds thriving in the Phd and then becoming what they would never achieve otherwise. I have also seen clever people simply burn out during, essentially waste 1-2 years from their rat-race.

No one I have known well has done a Phd because it would make them richer (if they became, it was purely incidental). I have seen loads of people extremely successful in the corporates, seek meaningful reflection and do a Phd. Typically, we receive 200+ applications for Phd at our school, and we typically admit 2-3 candidates. About 20 applicants will be at CEO-level from top-notch companies, seeking the part-time Phd route, it is gaining increasing popularity, they join when they are in their 40s or 50's (but this is not a universal phenomenon, perhaps restricted to India).

What i don't like about the Phd is that, as some posters have alluded to earlier, Phds and post docs are cheap labor, doing most of the research, often better than what their Prof can do herself, for much less pay/position, but at least in Switzerland no one complains because the pay is still good compared to most other countries and you are treated well.

Again, academics is not for everyone. I work in a university where the other new recruits are mostly what one could call reasonably successful in their lines (the harvard/MIT phds types). I am sure none would move to a corporate job even with 10x salary, some simply can't succeed there (e.g. me); some might succeed but simply don't want to get back there.

Since I started this thread I though I ought to share my story as well.

So I'm one of those DKH mentioned that was dragged along until graduation by my thesis advisor. I guess like many others, I started my PhD with high hopes and dreams. However, the more I learn about the field, the more unmotivated I became. After 4 years doing the work without much reward in term of success, I was burnt out. I wish to have nothing more to do with the project anymore. My funding ended and I got a job doing something slightly different in the same field in another department. It's not until another 2 years later that I finally submitted my thesis and defended it.

Now I hold a post doc position but in reality quite dissatisfied with the work. Perhaps it because I know the result will only interest a handful of people in the world and most probably wouldn't have much impact to our society. Perhaps it's because my own expectation was too high and unrealistic. Or it could be my constant wonder of what it's like outside of the academic fence.

My current exit strategy from academia is to use the relax lifestyle of a postdoc to build up my iPhone app business. Hopefully achieving financially independence. Then perhaps I will have the freedom to pursue other interest. Something that will have a more immediate impact in our society than the old dusty scientific journal ever will.

So I'm very glad to see so many people who have positive experience with their PhD. And regardless of whether the PhD have helped them in their later career, they are happy with their decisions. As for myself, I'm still too fresh after my PhD to be able to reflect on whether I'm happy with my decision to do it.

Wait... didn't you said earlier that postdoc experiences are liabilities?

Hello,

I can only tell my story. I did my masters because i had nothing else better to so. My PhD was the continuation. I did my PhD in the UK. I took it as a job, I was getting about 11.5k tax free, which was more than some other people working in the lab. My piece of advice is choose you subject wisely, all the better if working for a company and publish on peer review papers (when the reviews come, you can show your worked judged by an international audience), and there might be a job opportunity in the company. Choose a good supervisor, the work is yours and make sure he is there to guide you and not using you for his dirty work... Mine was fantastic, Thanks JRN!!!
Make no mistake it is 24/7 for 3 years at least, and prepare for a big amount of loneliness and depression... deal with the frustration of experiments not going well etc...
After, the question came, post doc? I was bored and not really learning anything new. So I decided Industry... it wasn't difficult to find a job. I had not completed writing and I was already signed contract. the PhD is not much valued in the UK, neither are engineers in general... I had a reasonable salary jump from PhD grant to industry, and bigger when I moved to Switzerland....
In my mind PhD shows how much can you dedicate to it, and not many people willing to sacrifice 3 years and their mental health,

Don't forget, PhD means:
Permanent
Head
Damage


I will not make millions, I live comfortably, and I did it...

I got a PhD....

Normally, PhD is hard long hours of work for low salary. In ETH PhD in natural science (biology, environment science, chemistry) are only paid 60% for 140% work they need to do. Worst is normally PhD is funded for 3 years while it normally takes between 3.5 to 4 years. So, you work 3 years low paid salary and then work for free for one year or more. The supervisor will still run after you after PhD for revision of papers for submission for journals. So one might have to work for PhD (at least 5 to 10%) even after 4 years.. unpaid of course.

But the best thing about PhD is the feeling of Euphoria when one hands in his/her thesis, its like getting out of dark room of confinement into bright real world. Additionally other people might think one with PhD are more intelligent (most of time is not true at all!). Its brutal physical and mental test, and if you pass test you can be proud of it. But believe me its not easy, about 25% of PhDs are frequents psychological counseling!!

I agree with a lot of this however, I think most of the time PhDs ARE more intelligent.

This thread just reminded me:



but on a serious note, here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science