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Old 31.01.2013, 08:52
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Discrimination on the job market

I'm a journalist researching an article on problems encountered by foreign workers in Switzerland, specifically being made redundant. Have you lost your job and think it's because you are foreign and therefore expendable? Or are you over 50 and having problems finding a new job? Have you encountered lack of transparency over hiring/firing decisions?
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Old 31.01.2013, 09:18
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

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Have you encountered lack of transparency over hiring/firing decisions?
Oh yes!!

Who has not, here?

Even some companies, like SkyGuide, Geneva, even refused to give a feedback on the rejected application. We simply asked diplomatically, stating that it was simply to improve that Junior's application... No comments given.

So not even a "too junior, skills different, etc..."

Happened many times.

Actually who has ever received any rejection letter in Switzerland? (I am talking about serious applications where the CV and experiences matchs the advertised position).
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Old 31.01.2013, 09:22
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

If one job is applied for by, say, 400 applicants, you're suggesting the company should take time out and give feedback because you were not the best candidate?

After all, if you got to interview stages then you're in the final handful - but it may sometimes be hard to give feedback to the top-finishing losers.

If you did not get that far then you failed to tune your CV to the role or attach a motivation/cover letter.

My personal view is that I don't have to look for jobs, I am regularly approached because of my LinkedIn profile. Right skills, correctly-constructed profile
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Old 31.01.2013, 09:29
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

Have a look through the EF, there are many many threads.

For example:

Hiring stop for ALL Americans ?

Age Discrimination in Swiss Companies

Fired for being pregnant
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Old 31.01.2013, 09:31
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

Its easy to take the higher ground when you have a plum job. When was the last time you were made redundant ? I agree with OPs hypothesis that its becoming more and more difficult for foreign workers here even to find jobs in large MNCs. As a non-EU, I have faced my fair share of ...ohh why don't you more back to your home country as situation is tough even for Europeans and my reply is as always- thanks but no thanks -whether I move back to my home country or I end up in some other geography is my decision to make and my time to take.
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Old 31.01.2013, 09:34
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

EmmyM- just PM-ed you. cheers
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Old 31.01.2013, 09:35
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

I was giving an answer based on lack of feedback for jobs applied for.

You are not discriminated against by an employer as non-EU but rather by the permit process.

And given the economic climate, there are jobs going and people suffering. From my experience in my area, 2x Swiss and 1x German let go. And we employ people from around 38 different countries according to our stats.
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Old 31.01.2013, 09:38
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

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Its easy to take the higher ground when you have a plum job. When was the last time you were made redundant ? I agree with OPs hypothesis that its becoming more and more difficult for foreign workers here even to find jobs in large MNCs. As a non-EU, I have faced my fair share of ...ohh why don't you more back to your home country as situation is tough even for Europeans and my reply is as always- thanks but no thanks -whether I move back to my home country or I end up in some other geography is my decision to make and my time to take.
Yeh! Have had that, I explained in no uncertain terms that I had not lived there since 1972, or longer than he had been alive, the stupid git. Had that quite a few times come to think about it.
And to the OP, being over 50 sucks big time, thanks to the social achievements of our times that force companies to pay more, give more holidays, expect more sick time, etc.
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Old 31.01.2013, 09:39
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

at 40 they already consider you old, so imagine at 50? here, if they want someone dynamic, you have to be between 25-35.

You speak English or German very well? it's not good, they want it to be your mothertongue.

You're a woman? you're being asked if you have children, if you want more, what age are they, who look after them while you are at work etc..

And if you haven't been working for more than 2 years, you are out of the market. You need to go and get trained again
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Old 31.01.2013, 09:41
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

Of course it happens- but not just here in Switzerland. One of my best friend is currently starting a business in Spain- and she is encountering so much hassle (despite speaking fluent Spanish). ETc, etc
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Old 31.01.2013, 09:43
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

So basically, a pale Swiss male between 25 and 40 will most likely never experience discrimination on the job market.

But the rest......

Last edited by olygirl; 31.01.2013 at 09:54.
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Old 31.01.2013, 09:47
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

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If one job is applied for by, say, 400 applicants, you're suggesting the company should take time out and give feedback because you were not the best candidate?

After all, if you got to interview stages then you're in the final handful - but it may sometimes be hard to give feedback to the top-finishing losers.

If you did not get that far then you failed to tune your CV to the role or attach a motivation/cover letter.

My personal view is that I don't have to look for jobs, I am regularly approached because of my LinkedIn profile. Right skills, correctly-constructed profile
You are wrong, mixing, and then proudly talking about how your profile is properly constructed. Which is again out of topic.

Also you automatically assume that the CV was not properly tailored to the job as if we necessarily made a mistake.


Let me tell you that it was not my application, but a friend's.
Let me add information that you ignored: after that I personally investigated and found out that the particular job was already expired when we applied- and yet still displaying as active.
It appeared that they were just collecting CVs, or that they stopped considering applications eventhough the advert was still online.

Also you are talking about 400 hundreds applicants, blablabla.
We personally contacted the HR person by email, then by phone. And yet we got a "no comment". Is that a big effort to reply to someone by phone?
No, it was more like a politically correct thing.

By the way, if you would read my comment carefully, you would match your answer properly and you would not talked about "replying to generic applications" but "replying to a request of information after a rejected application". Maybe you relied too much on your Linkedin Profile and fail to read any static information?

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Old 31.01.2013, 09:56
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

So you refer to a friend, junior and yet you're the one contacting HR? Your profile suggests you're looking for a job too.

You wanted a reply on a job that was expired? Don't forget that many jobs are pushed out to many sites and I'm sure many companies are better at pushing out ads and not so good at pulling them back.....plus the process is drawn out in Switzerland with 3-6 months of notice for many roles.

So what does expired mean to you? Filled with someone working in the position having just started?

Why be surprised that HR is not helpful? I've found them to be borderline useless when working at many companies so as a non-employee, your expectations should be even lower...! Especially when they might have 50 jobs advertised with 400 applications for each.....that's a lot of people to give feedback to if they follow your rules.

If you want a real answer if discrimination exists in the job market, I'd say men are more likely to get the top jobs than women.
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Old 31.01.2013, 10:02
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

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I was giving an answer based on lack of feedback for jobs applied for.

You are not discriminated against by an employer as non-EU but rather by the permit process.

And given the economic climate, there are jobs going and people suffering. From my experience in my area, 2x Swiss and 1x German let go. And we employ people from around 38 different countries according to our stats.
How am I being discriminated against if I already am a resident of Switzerland and hold a B-permit like others ? I would love to hear how many Germans, Italians etc living in Switzerland are asked to go back to their home country if they lost their jobs here.....
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Old 31.01.2013, 10:17
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

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So you refer to a friend, junior and yet you're the one contacting HR? Your profile suggests you're looking for a job too.

You wanted a reply on a job that was expired? Don't forget that many jobs are pushed out to many sites and I'm sure many companies are better at pushing out ads and not so good at pulling them back.....plus the process is drawn out in Switzerland with 3-6 months of notice for many roles.

So what does expired mean to you? Filled with someone working in the position having just started?

Why be surprised that HR is not helpful? I've found them to be borderline useless when working at many companies so as a non-employee, your expectations should be even lower...! Especially when they might have 50 jobs advertised with 400 applications for each.....that's a lot of people to give feedback to if they follow your rules.

If you want a real answer if discrimination exists in the job market, I'd say men are more likely to get the top jobs than women.
You're so clever...

Of course we applied for a job that was expired!!!

Hence we are stupid, and that explain why they have refused to comment even on the phone.
....

Or the missing bits that you failed to see is that:
1) Job was advertised and marked as "valid" (you could still apply in their online nightmare tool)
2) We applied
3) We got rejected (status changed to rejected online tool)
4) We contacted HR person by email; week later by phone just to ask what was weak in application, etc...
5) The person replied on phone but said she refuse to comment.
...
6) Then I investigated myself and found out that it was expired anyway prior our application. The how does not matter, neither the with who. I know my sources and I know it was trustworthy.


(I said we because I helped the application so I feel involved).


Surprise about HR not helpful? Not at all.
Surprise about HR' s "answer"? Yes. Especially that your theory is wrong: on those 400 applications, how many bother to call, how many reach the right person?

I don't comment about "discrimination", I only commented about "Have you encountered lack of transparency over hiring decisions".
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Old 31.01.2013, 10:20
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

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Why be surprised that HR is not helpful? I've found them to be borderline useless when working at many companies so as a non-employee, your expectations should be even lower...!
.
I'll still give you good feedback for that good description
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Old 31.01.2013, 10:20
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

the simple reality is that workers past the age of 50 are always the first to be let go during any resutructuring, since the Golden Rule in careers is that you're either moving up or you're moving out. I didn't make that rule, btw, and find it shortsighted, but whether or not I like the rule is unfortunately irrelevant. also, it is much easier for an employer to make someone past the age of 50 "happy" with a severance package that gets the ex-employee closer to retirement, since an older employee's view of "the future" is compressed as compared to a younger employee. this is why my stock answer when people ask me how long I intend to stay with my current employer is always "until the first corporate restructuring after my 50th birthday". the other Golden Rule is that those with working spouses at the same company are more likely to be let go, driven mostly by the "social impact" schemes that many EU countries employ.

in Switzerland, the only time that a foreigner is going to be let go before a local employee is when that foreigner is hired as a local hire, i.e. hired on the same terms as their Swiss colleagues. otherwise, any foreigner working in Switzerland is going to be far more expensive to let go than a Swiss employee, since Switzerland is the least employee-friendly labor environment in the EU and is even less employee-friendly than the US. as an example, severance packages for Swiss employees at many multi-nationals (and there are several letting employees go right now) about 30% of the length and dollar compensation of French, German, US or UK employees working in Switzerland.

the simple answer to me is that yes, of course discrimination as to age and a number of factors exists in the workplace. this is precisely why many employers offer severance packages in the first place.
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Old 31.01.2013, 10:58
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

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How am I being discriminated against if I already am a resident of Switzerland and hold a B-permit like others ? I would love to hear how many Germans, Italians etc living in Switzerland are asked to go back to their home country if they lost their jobs here.....
I've no idea - but have you been told during the hiring process that you should "go home"? And I expect the fact that HR will have to do a little, tiny bit of work should you be employed to work against you.

With regards to the over 50s and so on, this is not unique to Switzerland. And Switzerland is not in the EU but I can agree that employee protection is weak here.

In my opinion, Switzerland is not the Utopia it once was in the 90s. Had I known that, I would not have pissed my 90s wages up against a urinal in the pubs and clubs of Zurich!!!!
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Old 31.01.2013, 11:56
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

I was lucky enough to be invited to a job interview yesterday, my fourth in almost a year!!??!
It went well, very well, I found and the job is tailor made for my skill set and I have more than one advantage over the other applicants, Englisch, single etc.
However I still get the impression that they are holding out for somebody younger, some of their remarks came up as a red flag.
Keep ya all informed.
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Old 31.01.2013, 12:06
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Re: Discrimination on the job market

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I was lucky enough to be invited to a job interview yesterday, my fourth in almost a year!!??!
It went well, very well, I found and the job is tailor made for my skill set and I have more than one advantage over the other applicants, Englisch, single etc.
However I still get the impression that they are holding out for somebody younger, some of their remarks came up as a red flag.
Keep ya all informed.
good luck. i'm really not sure why there is this drive to hire younger people. in some sectors yes, but for many jobs, you'd think that experience and stability would win out...
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