hi,

i will soon finish my internship in zurich and it seems i might have 2 great opportunities in front of me in Switzerland (wasn't selected for none of them yet) and i don't know the market here, so i need an overview, to be able to choose better.

opportunity 1:
get in the Graduate Trainee Program (on IT business analysis in a big bank)
+ i am satisfied with the salary they offer for this position
+ after the traineeship (18-24 months) i will have a job in the same department where i was trainee so i will not have to worry about finding a job
- the trainee job description sounds interesting but i feel i am a little bit overqualified (but there is no other way to get in the "system" because of visa issues - only through the GTP program is possible - if i want a job here)

opportunity 2:
make a Ph. D. on a topic that i always loved (e-learning and communication)
+ i always dreamed to do something like this
+ it seams the faculty is really in the top in this type of programs
- the salary will definitely be smaller than the GTP one (have no idea though how much smaller)
- / + is not in Zurich, is in Lugano (i have never seen the town and don't know the culture either)

On short term i can see +es and -es but on longer term is hard to see things. All my questions are referring to Western Europe (in the future i do not necessarily intend to stay in Switzerland).

1. what will be the salary after the Ph. D.? can a find a job easily in Western Europe on e-learning/communication/adult education topics?
2. where can a Ph. D. work? what are the chances for a Ph. D. in such a field to work in a company and not to become a teacher? (in the country i am coming from, they all become teachers)
3. what will be the money-value and the value of these 2 opportunities in 5 years from now? do you think Western Europe will still need IT business analysts or eLearning specialists?
4. does anyone know what is the average salary a Ph. D. gets in CH from SNF?
5. what do you prefer and why: Zurich or Lugano?

cheers!

The Banks base the salary they offer you on experience and qualifications, with a heavy weighting toward experience. As a non officer you would get up to 130k (ish) a year in an IT role, but with 1 year experience I'd think 100k is more realistic (maybe less) even with a PhD.

Within 5 years in a bank you can be reasonably certain to gain at least a basic title, which means you would potentially be over 130k and your bonus would be bigger. Financially the Trainee program is likely to be the better choice, if you would stay with that bank for 5 years.

how about doing both of them in the same time: Ph. D. and job?
is it too crazy to think that is possible? i am very good with personal time management and data mining ...it should be a "+"

if they give you a grant for the phd, do they allow you to have a job? (i will also ask THEM, but first i want to get a general idea about it)

taking days off would not be such a big problem...and ZH and Lugano are just 3h distance from eachother..

i have always done 2-3 jobs/projects/stuff in the same time...i like being active...otherwise life might get boring...

I don't know if they allow you to have a job along side a PhD.

Personally I would find it hard to hold down and excel at a full time job in a bank whilst also doing a PhD, banks generally want to own your soul, but yu may be happy to work without any free time whatsoever, good for you if you can pull it off.

It's probably worth speaking to HR openly about your situation, they will probably tell you options for achieving what you want.

I would go after the Phd if I was you - follow the dreams.....

If you hold a Phd, you should have no problem joining that big bank and within a short while, you sould be up to the people doing the GTP. Salary wise a Phd counts and you should be on the same scale as the GTP guys in no length.

Assuming we are talking about the GTP, you should note that you only get a job in the sponsoring dept. after the program, if there is head count available. This year there are problems with head count in some depts. So some of the GTPs are have find positions else where.

Best Regards,

Jim

The "opportunity cost" of doing a Ph.D. is rarely amortized! Assume Ph.D. candidate earns about 80k p.a. less, i.e. opportunity cost of 240k in 3 years. Subsequently, maybe can start at extra 30k p.a. i.e amortization in approx 8 years. But after 3 or 4 years the Ph.D. degree is irrelevant and only employment performance counts.

Hence, a Ph.D makes no financial sense.
Do a Ph.D.only for soft factors, e.g.:
* Research fascinates you
* You like the title

Unfortunately, there also negative soft factors to a Ph.D:
* You are declared "over qualified"
* Your ideas are branded "academic"
* Creates inferiority complex among peers and friends

I think the best question to ask is: "What do you want to be when you grow up?"

A serious question, because a Phd is a means to an end. With it comes academic respect and credibility in research, at the expense of business acumen, pragmatism and real world application.

(Thats the perception, not necessarily the truth.)

The worst thing you can do though, is to launch into a PhD if your heart is not in it. So follow your gut instinct. Find your switches.

dave

thanks for all the opinions. this is what i wanted> some subjective thoughts for some veteran expats.

in the mean time, i made some inquires and found out i would earn about 60k per year and i would have to work in the university 30% of the time. i can have another job for up to 30% more (and my boss is interested in giving me a contract for 30% which would mean around 30k more per year), and the rest 40% i would be preparing my thesis and going to cool events - because the field of research is e-learning technologies (which is quite down to earth and really da** good for a future perspective - at least from my point of view, as an HR and IT professional) and it seems they have planned to send us to many interesting conferences.

Getting a job is almost out of the question because the ass***s from HR don't want to go through the pain of applying for a work permit for a "young professional". i have to qualify as a "specialist" (which i am if they would give a da** for my 3 years work experience in Romania). I am still applying for jobs and having interviews...a recruitment agency told me it is possible to get a job if the "interested" company's HR people are willing to go through the "paper hell".

so...i could earn 90k per year while working 60% and studying 40%...or i could study only 20% (cause usually i move faster than Swisses in matters of deliverables, anyway) and for the other 20% i could earn around 10/12k more on "extra" projects as a freelancer...i guess that gets me to 100k per year for sure...considering this is after 4 years of work, and that back home i would get only 15k per year (with quite high costs - rent in Bucharest is as much as here)...i think is a good deal

cheers!

thanks for all the opinions. this is what i wanted> some subjective thoughts for some veteran expats.

in the mean time, i made some inquires and found out i would earn about 60k per year and i would have to work in the university 30% of the time. i can have another job for up to 30% more (and my boss is interested in giving me a contract for 30% which would mean around 30k more per year), and the rest 40% i would be preparing my thesis and going to cool events - because the field of research is e-learning technologies (which is quite down to earth and really da** good for a future perspective - at least from my point of view, as an HR and IT professional) and it seems they have planned to send us to many interesting conferences.

Getting a job is almost out of the question because the ass***s from HR don't want to go through the pain of applying for a work permit for a "young professional". i have to qualify as a "specialist" (which i am if they would give a da** for my 3 years work experience in Romania). I am still applying for jobs and having interviews...a recruitment agency told me it is possible to get a job if the "interested" company's HR people are willing to go through the "paper hell".

so...i could earn 90k per year while working 60% and studying 40%...or i could study only 20% (cause usually i move faster than Swisses in matters of deliverables, anyway) and for the other 20% i could earn around 10/12k more on "extra" projects as a freelancer...i guess that gets me to 100k per year for sure...considering this is after 4 years of work, and that back home i would get only 15k per year (with quite high costs - rent in Bucharest is as much as here)...i think is a good deal

cheers!

Wishful thinking. You'll never get even close to 90k on 60%.

I was going to say that a PhD can offer more flexibility, but you have to be able to work independently, define your own research. And very often you tradeoff some income for that flexibility in a research environment. In a corporate setting, sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't to have a PhD.

However, if you look at your studies as so many deliverables rather than an interest in, accumulation of knowledge and expertise in a field:

"studying 40%...or i could study only 20% (cause usually i move faster than Swisses in matters of deliverables, anyway)"


You might well be better suited to the bank, or some other corporate environment. And I wouldn't be so sure that you move faster than all the "Swissies."

Good luck though, whatever you decide.

e.

Employment situation for Rumanians improves when Switzerland decides to extend privileged residency to the "new" EU countries.

This extension is being hotly debated. The Swiss Government is under EU pressure to treat all EU countries equally. Ultimately, the Swiss people must vote for it in a referendum.

Hello,

Staring salaries are always higher for PhDs but you have to be careful -- in Europe there is a certain 'prejudice' among HR and recruiters (except for scientific research fields) that PhDs are an unnecessary extra cost.
So it can work against you. If you look on a top professional jobs website where PhD degrees are often requested, you'll see that opportunities in e-learning and communications rarely request a doctoral degree. However the big companies that recruit this type of role almost all have programs or means by which you can do your PhD while working at the company.
Without talking figures, because this depends company to company, institution to institution, the 'money value' or total compensation is much higher if you take a job at a top company and complete your PhD while working for that company. The starting salary will be lower than if you went into the company with a PhD, but it is likely you will get a much BETTER job, because from the company's HR perspective, you are a much better deal WITHOUT a PhD. In the end, if once inside the company you do your PhD, chances are it is a MUCH BETTER deal for you -- the company will foot most or all of the costs of your studies, AND you'll get the raise that goes with having the degree.