A lot of people in this forum seem to be in IT and there are a lot of certificates to be had for those who collect them. Are they of any value? Well it appears that some people (see link) think some of them are. What do you think? http://www.certmag.com/articles/temp...d=487&zoneid=1

Experience *and* certificates must go together.
If you have experience, take the exams. You have nothing to lose.

Arguably:
1. Experience gets you the interview
2. The paper adds something in the mind of the interviewer, over the candidate who hasn't

I'm an MCDBA and will upgrade it after a year or 3 of hands on the new version...

Finally:
MCSE: Must Consult Someone Experienced

well, when I am reviewing CVs for projects ( mainly business/IT roles) I hardly check the certificates, sometimes schools are even not that important..

basically if I am having a junior of only a couple of years of experience, I might need additonal evidence to prove that the person is technically dependable and wouldnt crash at his first day looking at the screen blankly, but if I see solid work experience in a CV, that he has done the job that I am looking for already 2 times in the past, bingo, I dont waste time counting how many laminated certificates are hanging on his/her study wall...

I might be over pragmatic and probably only speaking for myself..

I used to work with someone certified - we were working with the same product suite.

He was the certified professional and I was the one who knew more about the product.

Go figure

honestly seen it happening so much, it is not even suprising me any longer.. I think the relevancy of formal training in IT or in any industry , when things are changing so much from one day to the next, is a topic for a tread on its own ...

as said, I would always prefer the "dirty hands" to any certificate

I agree with stamp and Lob, but maintain it's worth getting them if you have experience of the software.

There will be employers who look for it - one I knew used it as a tie-breaker.
And in his own words, if it's so easy to slag off or so easy to pass then go and do the exams. This guy is very savvy and runs his own IT consultancy in Glasgow.

I've also worked with (at least one) a guy who as MC-everything who didn't know his arse from his elbow.

I'm not saying certs are everything, but they are not nothing...

I would say that it is better than nothing, but it depends very much on the certification. I think there is a big difference between an MSCE and a CCIE. One only has to look at how easy it is to pass a test to get an idea. These days the entire question set for the MCSE can be downloaded from the internet and studied in advance. Does this mean that all certifications are equivalent to the MCSE and worth rubbish?

I think especially in Switzerland certifications can make a difference when it comes, as someone else pointed out, to getting in the door. I've noticed that the Swiss seem to have a fascination with pieces of paper more than any other nation I've had experience with. I'm still puzzled at the requirement to make your CV as fat as possible by attaching your school reports to every single application. Surely then a few industry certifications can't hurt?

Certifications are also a good way to find out if a young person starting in the industry has some initiative. First job? No work experience? Ok that's fine - but if they took the time to study all that stuff at home and pay for their own exams, and passed then I'll award them some brownie points for that. There's many people with no experience who will turn up AND expect their employer to pay for all their basic training and certifications, and have them do their study during work time...Why should I take a chance on people like that?

What about a degree? Is that also worthless? If I were hiring say for a networking role I wouldn't really care if the applicant had studied at the ETH or not. The question is, can he pull a rabbit out of a hat when the proverbial excrement hits the fan? Some certifications (e.g. CCIE) which test practical application of knowledge under pressure at least tell others that the person is not a complete muppet.

So I guess my answer to that question is: yes and no.

Another important aspect that's worth mentioning...

Sometimes people claim to have a lot of experience, but don't have the corresponding cert. This begs the question: why not? Surely if you know so much then going off to get the cert would be a mere formality? I mean it's not like at uni where you have to sit there for several years - if you have the knowledge to pass the test you book it, turn up and sit at a PC for an hour or so.

More often than not the people sitting there telling me that certs were a total waste of time (and therefore why they hadn't bothered to do them), were usually trying to cover up a lack of claimed experience or lack of talent.

Then you have the people who test well vs the people who don't test well. Those who test well may have studied to the test, have memorized the answers if the question is asked in the expected manner, but couldn't figure out how to turn on the computer if it was not standard. Then you've got others who can figure out why the rabbit was hiding in the bottom of the hat, how it got there and what to do to make sure he doesn't play that trick again - but when tested can barely pick the right answer on how to turn on the computer.

Hi Shell, I was talking more along the lines of someone taking the initiative, stumping up their own cash and doing these things in their own time. There are many people out there that lack the motivation to doing just that. As for being good at tests, I partially agree with you there, but we are mostly talking about the IT industry here. If someone tells me that they know their stuff, but they are "bad at tests" I wouldn't hire them just for that remark!

If we were talking about another industry then I'd probably look at the situation a little differently.

At my previous employer (a major Australian Bank) I had the opportunity to train two people who were on the banks graduate program in subsequent years.

The first year the graduate was quite intelligent and learnt things in the time you would expect someone to learn. The second year the graduate I trained was perhaps the most stupid person I had ever encountered. Needless to say that was the last year the department was a participant of the graduate program.

Having minimal formal qualifications in finance myself, next year I will be persuing qualifications which have a much more practical element. I did consider going to university, but after reading through my wife's textbooks (she is studying a Bachelor of Business) I felt half of the course was rubbish.

In the end, I don't think qualifications mean all that much in regards to someone's ability to do the job, it just might make the decision at the hiring stage between two good candidates a little easier.

I agree partly with this, except that the certs and quals get you the interview too. In fact experience is subjective unless entirely fact-based.

The certs I am talking about are not just IT, but any relevant training that can be demonstrated.

No one would get fired for offering a job to someone who was specifically qualified to do that job.

Certs are especially important in Switzerland and Germany where those qualified are regarded as superior beings to those not, and when you get to Doktor....

Dave

I've got a few certs, I study for them as a way of keeping my skills up to date but I will only study for technology I actually use. For example we have only just got around to getting Windows Server 2003 at work so I will spend the winter studying for that and also some Linux stuff as I'm new to that too. I think without the relevant hands on experience the piece of paper is useless. I once interviewed a guy when I was recruiting a new member for my team, he had certs galore and on paper looked great as his experience also looked good but as soon as I started asking him technical stuff he couldn't answer the questions. I tried to get him to answer the questions by asking him in different ways and even giving hints the size of an elephant but he couldn't answer correctly. I came to the conclusion he was a paper tiger who also lied about his experience, it is people like this who have given certifications a bad reputation.

There is also a requirement for some organisations to have a certain number of people with certficate X in order for the organisation to be at a certain partner level. So in this case if you need 10 or 20 people at a certain certification level, then you are bound to get one or two "not so good", or maybe more...

Interesting article at the start of this thread, I hardly recognise any of the top 10 's.

There are a whole bunch of reasons why an individual wants certifications, some just like taking exams