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Old 02.12.2014, 22:14
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Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

Are only unfavorable comp/ben changes qualifiable as an Anderungskundigung or also for instance change in scope of responsibilities?
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Old 02.12.2014, 22:17
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Re: Anderungskundiging

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Are only unfavorable comp/ben changes qualifiable as an Anderungskundigung or also for instance change in scope of responsibilities?
no, these are in the category "life is hard", unless your responsibilities are described in detail in your work contract.
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Old 02.12.2014, 22:33
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

Anderungskundigung is a unique swiss concept whereby employers can terminate somebody's employment with the full intention to then rehire them but with changed contractual details (salary, etc).

In other words: "you're fired, because we want to change your contract". Things like notice period still apply.
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Old 03.12.2014, 08:44
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

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Anderungskundigung is a unique swiss concept whereby employers can terminate somebody's employment with the full intention to then rehire them but with changed contractual details (salary, etc).

In other words: "you're fired, because we want to change your contract". Things like notice period still apply.
Nothing obliges you to sign it, you can walk away too.
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Old 03.12.2014, 11:32
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

Doesn't necessarily need to be C&B, can also be for significantly different scope of responsibilities. Though one usually comes with the other anyway.

Änderungskündigungen are exceptional and can't be done just for the fun of doing them. There need to be 'objective reasons' for them to be valid, restructuring being one of them. Granted, these days, everything can qualify as 'restructuring'. Reasons can also be on the employee level, i.e. performance.

That being said, always be cautious with these kinds of agreements, there is quite a bit of room for misuse.
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Old 03.12.2014, 12:20
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

When I used the word during discussions over a proposed change in my way of working, it caused quite a reaction. When I demonstrated that it really was Änderungskundigung, that's when I got a generous offer to "agree to separate".

It seems that if a change of duties/work etc. is Änderungskündigung and it does not conform with the permitted reasons for Änderungskündigung, then that is a serious legal matter.

Of course, an employer can get rid of an employee in many ways, but if they choose this route, they have to get it right or face the consequences.
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Old 20.01.2015, 06:01
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

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When I used the word during discussions over a proposed change in my way of working, it caused quite a reaction. When I demonstrated that it really was Änderungskundigung, that's when I got a generous offer to "agree to separate".

It seems that if a change of duties/work etc. is Änderungskündigung and it does not conform with the permitted reasons for Änderungskündigung, then that is a serious legal matter.

Of course, an employer can get rid of an employee in many ways, but if they choose this route, they have to get it right or face the consequences.
Did you obtain legal advice or just use online resources to educate/arm yourself?

What are the permitted reasons?

It sounds like an interesting route as it could be one of the few ways leading to an employer having to pay an employee a severance in Switzerland in case the termination process is not managed 'by the book'.
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Old 20.01.2015, 08:22
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

If an employer sticks to the rules of terminating an employee (form of notification, termination period), there is no need for a reason. In Switzerland you can be fired, simple as that.
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Old 20.01.2015, 09:18
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

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If an employer sticks to the rules of terminating an employee (form of notification, termination period), there is no need for a reason. In Switzerland you can be fired, simple as that.
This is true. However what some employers fail to understand is, if they don't follow the rules (legal and their own internal procedures), then they can be held accountable for it, and it can be quite a serious matter.

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Did you obtain legal advice or just use online resources to educate/arm yourself?
I was advised every step of the way by person who knew the law and the internal rules.

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What are the permitted reasons?

It sounds like an interesting route as it could be one of the few ways leading to an employer having to pay an employee a severance in Switzerland in case the termination process is not managed 'by the book'.
To get a definitive answer to this you'll need to talk to an employment lawyer. I really don't know.
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Old 20.01.2015, 23:16
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If an employer sticks to the rules of terminating an employee (form of notification, termination period), there is no need for a reason. In Switzerland you can be fired, simple as that.
Wrong. In particular Aenderungskundigung has quite some rules surrounding it and can be a very good way to obtain financial compensation in certain circumstances.

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Nothing obliges you to sign it, you can walk away too.

More importantly, you can reject and/or object to it. In particular if the employer does not follow certain procedures. This can be very advantageous to the employee.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 21.01.2015 at 21:20. Reason: merging successive posts
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Old 21.01.2015, 09:42
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

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Wrong. In particular Aenderungskundigung has quite some rules surrounding it and can be a very good way to obtain financial compensation in certain circumstances.
I was referring to a Kündigung and for that no reason has to be given.
If you seem to be such an expert, why bother asking?
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Old 21.01.2015, 10:22
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

I believe this cannot be used if the employee will take the same role.
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Old 21.01.2015, 20:42
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

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I was referring to a Kündigung and for that no reason has to be given.
If you seem to be such an expert, why bother asking?
This thread was not focused on regular kuendigungs so why bother making irrelevant posts?

I am not an expert but have learned more since making my first post in this thread incl from private messages sent by another member. Look up "short sighted" , you may learn more about yourself.
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Old 23.01.2015, 19:31
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

can I hijack this thread a little (please)?

I was told in december that my company does not foresee enough work for me from January onwards, so they wanted to let me go. In the end we agreed on a 50% reduction of workload (and employment) and went to have christmas time. Nothing signed on paper. I've gone to work every day ever since, hoping that they just kind of forgot. (obviously I was looking around for another job in the meantime and I also found one by now)

Come 19th January, my manager comes to me with the contract change to 50% employment for 50% salary on paper. I answered right away that I can not accept that reduction dated back to 1st Jan on the 19th, and we would have to talk about it (hint: "I'll just quit"). That face to face chat never happened then for logistic reasons.

Today I have received my half-salary, which got me quite upset and I wrote my mgmt that I assumed I'm still 100% as I didn't accept the change to the contract and agreement around it is still pending. All in all, this led to a very quick resignation on the job (I handed in my resignation the same time as they wanted to fire me).

Question is: in Swiss law most contracts are valid only when the parties agree each other verbally (I think _except_ Job employment contracts and terminations). Could anyone say which is here actually the case, which contract is valid over the other? Should they have offered me a "Kündigungsänderung" rather than a Change of contract if this is unfavorable to me, and does me verbally accepting something previously override a written decline on the same thing 4 weeks afterwards?

I've also engaged Protekta about this, but it's not until Monday that they can come back to me. I hoped EF knows everything
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Old 23.01.2015, 20:17
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

Beats me about the contract thing, but why did you resign instead of being fired? You just shot yourself in the foot wallet for RAV payments, no?
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Old 23.01.2015, 21:13
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

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... we agreed on a 50% reduction of workload (and employment)
...
Today I have received my half-salary, which got me quite upset

Question is: in Swiss law most contracts are valid only when the parties agree each other verbally
http://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifie...index.html#a12

http://www.seco.admin.ch/themen/0038...x.html?lang=de

In short, by law, a verbal contract on employment (or change thereof) is binding.

If you are able to prove that your existing contract mandates that changes to the contract have to be made in writing (this typically comes in the form of a written contract stipulating that "any changes to this contract have to be made in writing"), then formally there was no binding agreement.

I do wonder, though, about the seeming discrepancy between "we agreed on a 50% reduction" and your inquiry here?
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Old 24.01.2015, 01:21
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Beats me about the contract thing, but why did you resign instead of being fired? You just shot yourself in the foot wallet for RAV payments, no?
got another job already, so no worries

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I do wonder, though, about the seeming discrepancy between "we agreed on a 50% reduction" and your inquiry here?
well, as I could choose between termination and a 50% employment, I took the latter option and then started searching for a new job.

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If you are able to prove that your existing contract mandates that changes to the contract have to be made in writing ..... then formally there was no binding agreement.
if that is what you mean, this is in my contract, which is just that.
Jede Änderung dieses Arbeitsvertrags bedarf der Schriftlichkeit.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 24.01.2015 at 18:39. Reason: merging successive posts
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Old 24.01.2015, 17:02
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

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this is in my contract, which is just that.
Jede Änderung dieses Arbeitsvertrags bedarf der Schriftlichkeit.
Consequence: Contractually you are safe as no written amendment had been made.

Do remember, though, that Switzerland is a little village and news of somebody who unilaterally breaks a verbal agreement ("we agreed") might travel.

Again, contractually you are perfectly fine, any court would be on your side.
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Old 24.01.2015, 22:28
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

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Consequence: Contractually you are safe as no written amendment had been made.

Do remember, though, that Switzerland is a little village and news of somebody who unilaterally breaks a verbal agreement ("we agreed") might travel.

Again, contractually you are perfectly fine, any court would be on your side.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. I'm not a lawyer, but AFAIK any contract can be changed within any timeframe if all involved agree (unless some law explicitely says otherwise of course).

Since the change has been mutually agreed and verbally and unconditionally acknowledged by both parties, I think one could easily argue that the "in writing" clause has been willingly and freely forfeited, and therefor the verbal agreement is binding. Any HR person worth even half their salary will make sure such an agreement is done with two employer representatives present in order to have two confirming testimonies.

OPs description doesn't mention that you agreed on some specific date for the switch to 50% to take effect. If so, I would expect for the usual notice period to apply - after the testing period no less than one month, two months during employment years two and ten, 3 months afterwards (your contract may give you better protection, 3 months after 5 years is common).

That means, unless you were still in the testing period when the talk took place, and unless you agreed on a specific date, the earliest ordinary date for the change to take effect (and therefor reduced salary to apply) would be February 1st, and thus you're in fact owed the full January salary.

Since you already have a new job you may have some leverage to induce a termination date that suits you best.
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Old 24.01.2015, 23:36
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Re: Anderungskundiging [change of contract]

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I think one could easily argue that the "in writing" clause has been willingly and freely forfeited
Contractually - no. Because the very "in writing" clause prevents that.

Now, if there was written agreement to drop "in writing", and afterwards some verbal agreement ...

One could try to argue somewhere around http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culpa_in_contrahendo but that is a very difficult route. The employer would have to argue that agreement constitutes a separate contract which the OP never intended to follow through on.

Without doubt, though, any trust has been destroyed and the relationship with the employer is dead. So much for the good news.

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, and therefor the verbal agreement is binding.
Ethics, ethics - who cares about THAT?!

My, one would have to stick to contracts made (with a 3 year lease), follow through on agreements, respect a handshake! My.

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