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  #41  
Old 20.01.2015, 12:44
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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Back home, my our business is bankrupt, took the loan to cover some debts.
I really need this money. But I'm afraid of the consequences.
My boss says, there will be no negative impact if I rejected their offer.

Also, in the mean time, I'm going for a training from the company costing around 2500CHF, So I assume they need me.
Thank you for being very open here.

My reading of the situation is as follows:
The company realizes they made a mistake and is trying to find a solution.
If you really don't think you need the support of a relocation agency, then take the maximum amount being offered. You can always hire an agency on your own to help you with your housing search and the handover of your previous apartment. I am sure you are looking for every bit of your deposit back on that flat.

If the company are sending you for training obviously they think you are worth the investment.

Take the offer and start off on a good note.

Best of luck with the move and the new job.
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  #42  
Old 20.01.2015, 12:54
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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Hi,

I was informed by my HR that they have made a mistake in my contract. Instead of typing "XXXXCHF will be paid once as relocation allowance", it was typed as "XXXXCHF will be paid once a month for next 12 months as relocation allowance".
I have even double checked this when I got the offer and called them to confirm. Then the HR assistant ( HR manager was on leave) said it was correct that way as typed.
So as its a very good allowance, I signed the offer and send it back.
HR manager signed it before, I suppose she did not read the contract herself.
Now I have taken a loan calculating this allowance.
Now the HR has found their mistaken and wants to renogotiate with me offering me some reloaction assistance and moving costs which are around 30% to the actual allowance mentioned in the offer.
They said its upto me to accept or reject as the mistake is on their side.

Now, if I say no to their offer, I'm afraid they would make something else later, like rejecting some trainings etc.
Any one please advice which is the right thing for me to do now.
Accept their new allowance or reject it?

thanks
Well, you know now they made a mistake, and while you have the legal right to keep it and they may not say it directly, they will be expecting you to do the right thing in their eyes.

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Back home, my our business is bankrupt, took the loan to cover some debts.
I really need this money. But I'm afraid of the consequences.
My boss says, there will be no negative impact if I rejected their offer.

Also, in the mean time, I'm going for a training from the company costing around 2500CHF, So I assume they need me.
Just saw this, and that you had taken out a loan with this allowance into account (your initial post was a bit hard to read and I misinterpreted the context, sorry). Well it sucks that they made a mistake so early, but unless you are 100% sure that it will not go against you, then please don't let desperation cloud your judgement... like you say, 4k isn't a lot, and certainly not worth starting a new job with ill will on either side.

However, that goes both ways I guess... the company could easily write this off and put it down to experience, with a note towards checking things more carefully next time.

Last edited by Richdog; 20.01.2015 at 13:26.
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  #43  
Old 20.01.2015, 13:14
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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You know full well they made a mistake, so the answer to this should be obvious if you have even a shred of conscience towards your job and company. The fact you even need to ask is, in my eyes, somewhat shocking, and a telling sign as to where your priorities lay.

You don't need us to act as your moral compass, that's your responsibility, so make your choice and accept the future consequences, whatever they may be.



Just saw this. Don't let greed and desperation cloud your judgement...
I can tell you for a fact that a relocation allowance of chf 12,000 should not be assumed to be a mistake. I know plenty of employees who were offered at least that and more to relocate within Switzerland.

The OP checked the figure with the employer before signing the contract. What more could he do? Only after making plans based on this figure he learned it was a mistake and he is asking for advice. He doesn't need a lecture from you about his "moral compass". The fact that he is asking shows he is trying to act ethically.

Each time someone on this forum moans about a contract, how inflexible it is, how they forgot to give notice to break it in time, etc. regardless of the provider, we tell this person those are the terms, like or lump it, you have to stick to them.

Now we are saying a contract is not a contract.

The OP clearly wants to take the new position and the company seems to want him. They need to find a solution which both parties can live with. He has posted on here, very openly I might add, which I would caution against as the last thing he needs is someone figuring out who is new employer is.
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  #44  
Old 20.01.2015, 13:18
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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I can tell you for a fact that a relocation allowance of chf 12,000 should not be assumed to be a mistake. I know plenty of employees who were offered at least that and more to relocate within Switzerland.

The OP checked the figure with the employer before signing the contract. What more could he do? Only after making plans based on this figure he learned it was a mistake and he is asking for advice. He doesn't need a lecture from you about his "moral compass". The fact that he is asking shows he is trying to act ethically.

Each time someone on this forum moans about a contract, how inflexible it is, how they forgot to give notice to break it in time, etc. regardless of the provider, we tell this person those are the terms, like or lump it, you have to stick to them.

Now we are saying a contract is not a contract.

The OP clearly wants to take the new position and the company seems to want him. They need to find a solution which both parties can live with. He has posted on here, very openly I might add, which I would caution against as the last thing he needs is someone figuring out who is new employer is.
I edited after noting a few more details later in the thread.
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  #45  
Old 20.01.2015, 15:17
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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If they fire somebody for being too expensive within a short time of hiring that person they will probably lose unless they are letting several people go at the same time. .
I thought an employee could be let go within the first year of employment without ANY reason being given?
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  #46  
Old 20.01.2015, 15:28
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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I thought an employee could be let go within the first year of employment without ANY reason being given?
Within ANY year of employment. Maybe GAVs can change this?
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  #47  
Old 20.01.2015, 16:06
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

So if the OP holds out & gets fired he will have to repay any of the allowance paid to date.
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Old 20.01.2015, 16:21
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

Slightly similar in some respects:

I went to the UK, stayed in a hotel that cost £75 for one night. Came back, sent the receipts and time-sheet to my employer.

Three weeks later, I paid a huge amount...

Turns out they had misread the £75.00 as £7500 - and they didn't bloody realise! (I checked my timesheet; it was as clear as a bell it was £75.00)

This was about 16,500CHF back in 2003.

Left me thinking "what now?" They haven't noticed at all. But they might in the future. Then what? I can hardly use the defence of "Oh, really? I didn't notice that piddly amount!".

Anyway, I contacted Payroll, and they looked into it (they had not realised at all). I asked if we could "negotiate" something (as I had been honest) and it worked (!) They said that I won't get paid until the overpayment is 'paid off' and, as a thank-you I can keep the interest - so that was me about 0.5CHF better off...

Sometimes, the devil in me says I should have kept my mouth shut..
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Old 20.01.2015, 18:20
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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Slightly similar in some respects:

I went to the UK, stayed in a hotel that cost £75 for one night. Came back, sent the receipts and time-sheet to my employer.

Three weeks later, I paid a huge amount...

Turns out they had misread the £75.00 as £7500 - and they didn't bloody realise! (I checked my timesheet; it was as clear as a bell it was £75.00)

This was about 16,500CHF back in 2003.

Left me thinking "what now?" They haven't noticed at all. But they might in the future. Then what? I can hardly use the defence of "Oh, really? I didn't notice that piddly amount!".

Anyway, I contacted Payroll, and they looked into it (they had not realised at all). I asked if we could "negotiate" something (as I had been honest) and it worked (!) They said that I won't get paid until the overpayment is 'paid off' and, as a thank-you I can keep the interest - so that was me about 0.5CHF better off...

Sometimes, the devil in me says I should have kept my mouth shut..

That would be called unjustified enrichment and it is subject to repayment. Same as if you were paid out a salary or salary component you weren't entitled to. There were cases like that in our company that happened during the global transition from one payroll system to another - many people were paid out salaries they weren't entitled to and didn't say anything. Well it was found out, months later, and they had to pay up.


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I thought an employee could be let go within the first year of employment without ANY reason being given?
Why do people keep assuming you need a reason to be fired at some point or another?

Note: in Switzerland, by law, you need NO reason to terminate a contract, in ANY year of employment, EVER, as long as you stick to the contractual notice periods.
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  #50  
Old 21.01.2015, 13:08
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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So if the OP holds out & gets fired he will have to repay any of the allowance paid to date.
Nothing mentioned like that in the contract.
Shouldn't it be mentioned in the contract if that is the case?
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  #51  
Old 21.01.2015, 13:12
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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Nothing mentioned like that in the contract.
Shouldn't it be mentioned in the contract if that is the case?
yes
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Old 21.01.2015, 13:16
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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Nothing mentioned like that in the contract.
Shouldn't it be mentioned in the contract if that is the case?
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yes
Careful with that. In my firm's case, the employee handbook forms a binding part of the contract, and the repayment requirement can actually be found in the handbook. So that's a "yes, but" not just a "yes"!
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Old 21.01.2015, 13:18
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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Careful with that. In my firm's case, the employee handbook forms a binding part of the contract, and the repayment requirement can actually be found in the handbook. So that's a "yes, but" not just a "yes"!
Same here.

Yes it needs to be regulated, but no it doesn't necessarily need to be regulated in each and every individual contract
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  #54  
Old 21.01.2015, 13:21
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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Slightly similar in some respects:

I went to the UK, stayed in a hotel that cost £75 for one night. Came back, sent the receipts and time-sheet to my employer.

Three weeks later, I paid a huge amount...

Turns out they had misread the £75.00 as £7500 - and they didn't bloody realise! (I checked my timesheet; it was as clear as a bell it was £75.00)

This was about 16,500CHF back in 2003.

Left me thinking "what now?" They haven't noticed at all. But they might in the future. Then what? I can hardly use the defence of "Oh, really? I didn't notice that piddly amount!".

Anyway, I contacted Payroll, and they looked into it (they had not realised at all). I asked if we could "negotiate" something (as I had been honest) and it worked (!) They said that I won't get paid until the overpayment is 'paid off' and, as a thank-you I can keep the interest - so that was me about 0.5CHF better off...

Sometimes, the devil in me says I should have kept my mouth shut..
I came across a similar issue where small amounts (may be £50-£100) were incorrectly reimbursed to the wrong employee (should have been me). I ignored it for while and then tried to sort it out after a few months.

At the time, I didn't know it had been reimbursed elsewhere. The recipient employee kept his mouth shut.

The first I realised something was wrong was when I got an unexpected interview meeting with HR to understand the facts. The next day, the employee in question was fired. Over ~£500.
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Old 21.01.2015, 13:22
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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Careful with that. In my firm's case, the employee handbook forms a binding part of the contract, and the repayment requirement can actually be found in the handbook. So that's a "yes, but" not just a "yes"!
That's the same in OH's company too.
The company handbook states that a proportion of the relocation allowance has to be repaid to the company should the employee leave within a certain time. ( it then gives the percentages for the different time periods).
This is the same for all employees so doesn't feature in individual contracts as it is company policy.
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Old 21.01.2015, 13:51
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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I came across a similar issue where small amounts (may be £50-£100) were incorrectly reimbursed to the wrong employee (should have been me). I ignored it for while and then tried to sort it out after a few months.

At the time, I didn't know it had been reimbursed elsewhere. The recipient employee kept his mouth shut.

The first I realised something was wrong was when I got an unexpected interview meeting with HR to understand the facts. The next day, the employee in question was fired. Over ~£500.
Oh, dear, if someone were fired every time I receive a wrongful reimbursement, my ex-company would have shrunk a lot.

Some years ago, when I was traveling a lot for my work (15/20 days per month), to different countries (different currencies, different timezones, and languages, etc), I think in roughly 50% of cases I was reimbursed less, or reimbursed months later, etc. Only when I notice that there was a mistake there was a mild reaction.

Lots and lots of incompetent people, but what to do? Life goes on. In these days, I would hardly notice if I were paid more than I should have. I would have probably just thought that it must have been something that had been forgotten before.
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Old 21.01.2015, 14:33
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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With current job market, I'm afraid to fight with HR.
Then don't.

The question is whether the promise of additional money swung the decision to take the job. If it didn't, then accept it was a mistake and take the job. If you wouldn't have taken the job without the allowance, then tell them politely that you've changed your mind now that the true package has been clarified.

Try turning it to your advantage. Write them a nice letter saying that you understand it was an error and you hope no one will get into trouble because mistakes do happen, and please send a revised contract. But mention it to a few people as it makes you seem reasonable. And when you have your annual review, or when the question of a pay rise comes up, you can remind your boss that you voluntarily turned down the erroneous 8K.

Think of the opposite scenario, where you take the money. You'll forever be thought of as that difficult person who wouldn't accept a mistake. (And you'll be reminded of this every time YOU make an error!) Ultimately, 8K is not worth the possible consequences.
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Old 21.01.2015, 16:35
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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Oh, dear, if someone were fired every time I receive a wrongful reimbursement, my ex-company would have shrunk a lot.
The issue of course was not wrongful reimbursement, but dishonestly retaining the money instead of flagging it.
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Old 21.01.2015, 16:55
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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The issue of course was not wrongful reimbursement, but dishonestly retaining the money instead of flagging it.
It's interesting that people seem surprised an employer would not like to keep staff who are less than 100% honest. Quite amazing but really not surprised as I see people ripping off their employers on a day to day basis.
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Old 21.01.2015, 17:16
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Re: Allowances mistake by HR

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Note: in Switzerland, by law, you need NO reason to terminate a contract, in ANY year of employment, EVER, as long as you stick to the contractual notice periods.
People keep saying that, and I'm getting the sense that everyone's constantly afraid of getting fired. And yet I see every day where I work and elsewhere people screwing up big time and nothing happening. Mistakes that cost upwards of 100k and make or break a project's profitability, managers asking for something next week only to get an answer of the sorts "you'll have it in 3 weeks" etc.

The truth is that yes everyone can get fired at any point, and yes each company is different. And of course there are a lot of competent people around ready to take each other's job. But if someone fired you for no reason, given that they're not freaking crazy (in some way or another) then you were probably too expendable. I mean a manager firing someone means they will have a capacity deficit, they will have to spend time and possibly money to find someone, and then they need to train the guy and wait until said guy gets up to speed and acclimatises to everything happening. Firing someone seems to me to be much more expensive that a severance pack or whatever.

But then again I'm a freaking n00b, so I might be completely wrong
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