Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 17.02.2015, 21:37
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,182
Groaned at 528 Times in 400 Posts
Thanked 11,933 Times in 4,672 Posts
Richdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond repute
Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

Question for all you employment law experts out there. I was having an interesting conversation with someone the other day and they were adamant that doing legitimate overtime (genuine hours you work and log in your time recording system, above and beyond your standard amount) in Switzerland has to by law be financially compensated.

Can anyone please confirm if this is true or not?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 17.02.2015, 21:38
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,131
Groaned at 927 Times in 723 Posts
Thanked 19,690 Times in 9,471 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

I've always been compensated in time.

Tom

Last edited by st2lemans; 18.02.2015 at 08:38.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 17.02.2015, 21:54
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ZH
Posts: 717
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 648 Times in 338 Posts
daffy99 has an excellent reputationdaffy99 has an excellent reputationdaffy99 has an excellent reputationdaffy99 has an excellent reputation
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

Quote:
View Post
Question for all you employment law experts out there. I was having an interesting conversation with someone the other day and they were adamant that doing legitimate overtime (genuine hours you work and log in your time recording system, above and beyond your standard amount) in Switzerland has to by law be financially compensated.

Can anyone please confirm if this is true or not?
Confirmed not true - http://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifie...dex.html#a321c
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 17.02.2015, 21:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,182
Groaned at 528 Times in 400 Posts
Thanked 11,933 Times in 4,672 Posts
Richdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

Quote:
View Post
I've always compensated in time.

Tom
Sigh. Do you mean you compensate people who work for you with time in lieu?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 17.02.2015, 22:05
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,182
Groaned at 528 Times in 400 Posts
Thanked 11,933 Times in 4,672 Posts
Richdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

Thanks for the link. Ok, so:

Quote:
Art. 321 c

IV. Overtime Work

1 When compared to the temporal scope of work, the agreed or intended usual or standard employment contract or collective bargaining agreement, the performance of overtime work is necessary, the employee is to the extent required to when he is able to afford to and they are reasonably expected to in good faith can.

2. In agreement with the employee, the employer may offset the overtime work within a reasonable time by time of at least equal duration.

3 If the overtime work is not compensated by time off and is otherwise agreed in writing or determined by standard employment contract or collective bargaining agreement, the employer has to pay for the overtime wages, calculated on the basis of the normal wage plus a surcharge of at least one quarter.
So basically if I understand that correctly, then they either need to provide time in lieu (if the employee agrees this is OK), or pay it in financial compensation, with a minimum of 25% extra?

What if a company has a clause in the employment contract that basically says: "Your salary includes all standard hours, and any overtime that may be necessary", that is then signed by the employee in order to gain employment. No benefit or compensation is given to the employee for working overtime. Is that allowable under Article 321c?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 17.02.2015, 22:13
eyebeebe's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Pfäffikon SZ
Posts: 1,098
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 954 Times in 475 Posts
eyebeebe has a reputation beyond reputeeyebeebe has a reputation beyond reputeeyebeebe has a reputation beyond reputeeyebeebe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

Quote:
View Post
Thanks for the link. Ok, so:



So basically if I understand that correctly, then they either need to provide time in lieu (if the employee agrees this is OK), or pay it in financial compensation, with a minimum of 25% extra?

What if a company has a clause in the employment contract that basically says: "Your salary includes all standard hours, and any overtime that may be necessary", that is then signed by the employee in order to gain employment. No benefit or compensation is given to the employee for working overtime. Is that allowable under Article 321c?
Yes if the role is classed as senior management. In the banks that is anyone at VP (CS) or D (UBS) level and above.

Also the option to be financially compensated is only given to more junior grades if they have accrued over 50 hours overtime. Under that is time off in lieu. There is also a Swiss legal maximum number of hours of overtime these grades can do. I can't be bothered looking it up, but the number 276 is in my head for some reason.

ETA there are also supplements for working after a certain time in the evening and then again for "night work", Saturday work and God forbid Sunday and Bank Holiday work. I think those are also legally stipulated.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank eyebeebe for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 17.02.2015, 22:25
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,182
Groaned at 528 Times in 400 Posts
Thanked 11,933 Times in 4,672 Posts
Richdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

Quote:
View Post
Yes if the role is classed as senior management. In the banks that is anyone at VP (CS) or D (UBS) level and above.

Also the option to be financially compensated is only given to more junior grades if they have accrued over 50 hours overtime. Under that is time off in lieu. There is also a Swiss legal maximum number of hours of overtime these grades can do. I can't be bothered looking it up, but the number 276 is in my head for some reason.

ETA there are also supplements for working after a certain time in the evening and then again for "night work", Saturday work and God forbid Sunday and Bank Holiday work. I think those are also legally stipulated.
Thanks ebb, useful info.

I also found the following: https://www.ch.ch/en/overtime-and-extra-hours/

Quote:
Premiums
  • Overtime must be compensated with a premium of 25%.
  • Premiums may, however, be excluded in writing.
  • Overtime may also be compensated with time off of at least the same duration in lieu of a monetary premium. This solution hinges on approval by the employee and the employer.
  • Working time is generally not specifically defined in terms of hours for management staff. It is assumed that the performance of employees with a greater workload is compensated with higher wages, although this is generally regulated in the employment contract. Compensation of overtime without a premium or at a premium below 25% may also be agreed in writing.

Extra hours

Extra hours accrue when working hours exceed the statutory maximum number of working hours per week (45 to 50 hours depending on the sector).

Extra hours:
  • may not exceed two hours per day.
  • may not exceed 170 hours per calendar year (based on a 45-hour week) or 140 hours (based on a 50-hour week).
  • must be compensated with a premium of at least 25% if they are not compensated with time off within a specified period.

Example:

During a specific week, an employee works 52 hours, which amounts to seven hours overtime, since the company has a maximum of 45 working hours per week. If the company had a statutory 40-hour week, an additional five hours would be considered to be overtime.
I am not seeing anything to suggest that if an employee signs a contract stating that the salary includes potential overtime, that this is enforceable by the employer, or potentially even legal.

Does that sound right?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Richdog for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 17.02.2015, 22:38
eyebeebe's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Pfäffikon SZ
Posts: 1,098
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 954 Times in 475 Posts
eyebeebe has a reputation beyond reputeeyebeebe has a reputation beyond reputeeyebeebe has a reputation beyond reputeeyebeebe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

Not an expert on the letter of the law - only how it is applied at our place. I know of other large companies who are wilfully ignorant of the law particularly around maximum overtime hours.

The contract your friend has and it's legality, I suspect, will all depend on seniority. Per my previous post anyone at the big 2 who is mid-ranking (despite VP/D being called senior management they are mid-ranking in reality) doesn't get overtime - it's written in the employee handbook which is an extension of the contract.

If your friend is a cleaner, I would suggest it's not on. If they are mid to senior (in banking as above, in consulting manager and above) I'd say it was fair and should be reflected in salary and benefits.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank eyebeebe for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 17.02.2015, 23:47
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,520
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,544 Times in 4,681 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

Quote:
View Post
Yes if the role is classed as senior management. In the banks that is anyone at VP (CS) or D (UBS) level and above.

Also the option to be financially compensated is only given to more junior grades if they have accrued over 50 hours overtime. Under that is time off in lieu. There is also a Swiss legal maximum number of hours of overtime these grades can do. I can't be bothered looking it up, but the number 276 is in my head for some reason.

ETA there are also supplements for working after a certain time in the evening and then again for "night work", Saturday work and God forbid Sunday and Bank Holiday work. I think those are also legally stipulated.
When I was in this situation I remember there were different rules in various Kantons but that may have changed now.

I did earn a lot of overtime money over the year 2000 changeover weekend when I was in IT; biggest problem was persuading the pub landlord (where we sited our rapid response team) to stay open until midday the next day.

We thought we had all the potential problems sussed but our main software supplier reported a problem; my team and I were able to spend a number of extra hours investigating before we found it was not relevant for our installation.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 18.02.2015, 00:25
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ZH
Posts: 717
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 648 Times in 338 Posts
daffy99 has an excellent reputationdaffy99 has an excellent reputationdaffy99 has an excellent reputationdaffy99 has an excellent reputation
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

Quote:
View Post
What if a company has a clause in the employment contract that basically says: "Your salary includes all standard hours, and any overtime that may be necessary", that is then signed by the employee in order to gain employment. No benefit or compensation is given to the employee for working overtime. Is that allowable under Article 321c?
Yes.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank daffy99 for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 18.02.2015, 00:43
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ZH
Posts: 717
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 648 Times in 338 Posts
daffy99 has an excellent reputationdaffy99 has an excellent reputationdaffy99 has an excellent reputationdaffy99 has an excellent reputation
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

Quote:
View Post
Yes if the role is classed as senior management. In the banks that is anyone at VP (CS) or D (UBS) level and above.
There is nothing *in law* that would stipulate that lack of compensation for overtime is limited to "senior management" roles - or even management roles as such.

It would be perfectly acceptable for a cashier at Migros to be compensated with an "all-inclusive" remuneration package. (I have no idea of the compensation structure in place at Migros, by the way - just struggling for some pointed example to highlight the point).

On the other hand, it is perfectly normal to have such clauses in contracts in "Kader" roles, i.e. roles which are slightly beyond the "normal employee-worker bee" level. Keep in mind that "Kader" can be anything. Salary calculators, for instance, even list "Lower Kader" roles (presumably the poorest of all team leader position, right in the sandwich between all responsibility and zero power)

Keep in mind that there is always http://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifie.../index.html#a9 but watch out for Art 3 d ArG (http://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifie.../index.html#a3) which addresses the "Higher Kader" / "Senior Management" bit.

Given the context, it might be helpful for the OP to have a look at (the German language) http://www.kader-mitarbeiter.ch/

Finally, given the laws of supply and demand, and the, well sort-of-at-will employment in Switzerland (contracts for gainful employment can be cancelled by both employee and employer as they please), there is the written word in a contract (as in "all inclusive"), there is corporate culture, and there is always the option to agree a bonus (money, time) on the side.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank daffy99 for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 18.02.2015, 00:58
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundn'about Basel
Posts: 7,092
Groaned at 102 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 9,661 Times in 4,067 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

Hourly workers (clocked in/out) require compensation. Senior staff fall under the "your salary covers this" and therefore do not get compensation. I remember reading this on some CH federation site but frankly can't be bothered to look it up. Richdog that someone is wrong (depending on the individual case).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 18.02.2015, 09:44
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,182
Groaned at 528 Times in 400 Posts
Thanked 11,933 Times in 4,672 Posts
Richdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

Ok thanks for the feedback guys, very interesting. For reference, person I was discussing it with is non-senior, non-management for an accounting company.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 18.02.2015, 10:24
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 2,344
Groaned at 59 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 3,487 Times in 1,366 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

While technically stipulated by law that overtime must be compensated in some way or another, the respective paragraph - OR321c Abs. 2 and 3 - is "dispositiv" (sorry, can't find a proper English translation), i.e. not compulsory. Therefore, companies may choose to agree anything they want with their employees, through individual or collective contracts. This is in fact pretty common practice.

So bottom line: no, there is no general right to compensate overtime, financially or with free time, if other agreements have been made in contracts or through company-wide regulations that, by default, form part of any work contract.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Samaire13 for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 18.02.2015, 10:44
Loz1983's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,064
Groaned at 295 Times in 172 Posts
Thanked 5,168 Times in 1,848 Posts
Loz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

I think the employment contract is king. My former employer gave me the option of an inclusive contract or an exclusive contract when I started working with them. The inclusive contract offered quite a bit more money per month however any overtime was then considered to be included. The exclusive contract offered less money however any overtime up to 5 hours a week could be taken off as time in lieu; overtime beyond these 5 hours overtime had to be paid out at 125%.

As I considered free time to be more valuable to me than the money I went for the exclusive contract and enjoyed anything up to 10 weeks holiday a year whilst working there.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 18.02.2015, 12:08
FrankZappa's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: France, near Geneva
Posts: 653
Groaned at 5 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 1,897 Times in 420 Posts
FrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Overtime - is it law in CH that it has to be financially compensated?

In our large Geneva company, paid overtime is unknown at all levels outside the factory. I have always joked: you have to do 40 hours, but you can stay as long as you like.Since we are very proud of our high ethical standards (who isn't? ), then I assume that this behavior is within Swiss law.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank FrankZappa for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
employment, overtime, working




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Incorporating in CH - When is it really worth it? pdm Business & entrepreneur 1 02.09.2011 14:31
I can't make it here in Switzerland financially. OtherOne Finance/banking/taxation 220 01.09.2010 15:00
Is it really that complicated [to get a B permit once in Switzerland]? Donjamesayer Permits/visas/government 8 06.03.2010 11:23
How easy is it to find a rental property that has outside access and will allow cats oohsparkles Other/general 7 09.10.2008 14:58


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:31.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0