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  #61  
Old 27.02.2015, 10:28
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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Confident = immature? I dont see what is immature about me, I take care of my job very well, learn my craft better than my coworkers usually and I pay my bills on time and save up money even, I think I am probably more mature than your average guy actually. That I am a little arrogant when it comes to politics and my own abilities doesnt make me immature I think.
haha, great stuff, keep up the good work, especially now it's Friday.

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Old 27.02.2015, 10:38
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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It does actually in the field of economics since there is no practical hands on experience with the science.
I hope you are trolling, because otherwise this statement (and the context in which it was provided) would be a slap in the face to any real economist.

And if you think the CHF/EUR decoupling is indicative of the level of "freedom" within the Swiss economy, then wow. Just wow. Ask yourself why the peg was established in the first place and who was the beneficiary? Does that sound like an open and free market?

Lastly - any real economist understands that change in economic policy always means a redistribution and new equilibrium - sometimes violently. Belittling the "losers" in this latest move shows very little maturity as an economist.
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  #63  
Old 27.02.2015, 12:09
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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I hope you are trolling, because otherwise this statement (and the context in which it was provided) would be a slap in the face to any real economist.
One might argue that they deserve one...
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  #64  
Old 27.02.2015, 19:14
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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haha, great stuff, keep up the good work, especially now it's Friday.

I aim to please.
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  #65  
Old 27.02.2015, 19:19
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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I hope you are trolling, because otherwise this statement (and the context in which it was provided) would be a slap in the face to any real economist.
Well I come from an alternative economic school, the one that was dominant before the 1930s, I do not subscribe to modern statistical based economics, I dont think it works.

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And if you think the CHF/EUR decoupling is indicative of the level of "freedom" within the Swiss economy, then wow. Just wow. Ask yourself why the peg was established in the first place and who was the beneficiary? Does that sound like an open and free market?
No it doesnt sound like an open and free market, that is why I am glad the peg was removed, the peg was just a subsidy policy for the exporting sectors of Switzerland. It is the same thing they have been doing in China, subsidizing their export sector by impoverishing the average chinese people.

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Lastly - any real economist understands that change in economic policy always means a redistribution and new equilibrium - sometimes violently. Belittling the "losers" in this latest move shows very little maturity as an economist.
I dont see where I belittled anyone in my posts.
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Old 27.02.2015, 19:24
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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Well I come from an alternative economic school, the one that was dominant before the 1930s
Austrian School, perchance? What makes you think it's valid now when Keynesian expansion (credit boom) has given us the highest standard of living in human history?
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Old 27.02.2015, 19:40
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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Austrian School, perchance? What makes you think it's valid now when Keynesian expansion (credit boom) has given us the highest standard of living in human history?
The standard of living is not all that good, the food is shittier these days and people are poorer in many ways compared to before, my grandfather could afford a big house, a car, a stay at home wife and 2 kids on 1 salary, I cannot afford that now in Denmark, no way in hell so my living standard as a man has gone DOWN because of Keynesian idiocy and government worship. This despite huge technological improvements (which sure as hell was not caused by keynesian idiocy), so basically you have machines and organization in the private sector that is much much more efficient and STILL the living standards have gone down. That is a testament to the failure of Keynesian economics, that even with much better technology it delivers worse results.
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  #68  
Old 27.02.2015, 19:48
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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The standard of living is not all that good, the food is shittier these days and people are poorer in many ways compared to before, my grandfather could afford a big house, a car, a stay at home wife and 2 kids on 1 salary
At the age of 29?
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Old 27.02.2015, 19:50
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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At the age of 29?
At any age, do you have any idea how Denmark works with our taxes? Why do you think I want to get out of this shithole?
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Old 27.02.2015, 19:51
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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At any age, do you have any idea how Denmark works with our taxes? Why do you think I want to get out of this shithole?
Have you tried anointing a young man, strangling him, stabbing him and throwing him in a bog?

It worked for your forebears, maybe it will bring you prosperity too?
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Old 27.02.2015, 19:53
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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Have you tried anointing a young man, strangling him, stabbing him and throwing him in a bog?

It worked for your forebears, maybe it will bring you prosperity too?
Sorry I misread your post, but yeah at around 29 he had that.
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  #72  
Old 27.02.2015, 19:57
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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Sorry I misread your post, but yeah at around 29 he had that.
Well, given the choice between punitive taxes and the threefold death, I think I'd choose the former.
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  #73  
Old 27.02.2015, 19:59
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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Austrian School, perchance? What makes you think it's valid now when Keynesian expansion (credit boom) has given us the highest standard of living in human history?
One could argue that we've achieved the highest standard of living despite the mis-allocation of resources through "Keynesian" policies. Given the rate of technological progress, and the rate at which we could be accumulating real capital to do more of the work for us, economic growth has been remarkably low.

Perhaps some of the gap between our potential and reality can be explained by batshit state borrowing and spending and "investing"? I'm not claiming I can demonstrate this, but it's certainly a hypothesis I am inclined to entertain.

Hopefully you can at least see that what you have written above does not follow.

Personally, I think "Keynesian" policies tend to be a statist scam. If people want to be statist / collectivist, then fine, but please be honest and raise enough money for current spending with current taxation. Or at least balance over the business cycle (store surplus in good times, spend it in bad), which I think was what the real Keynes was originally on about. Instead of pointing at the magic money tree, and invoking basically magical arguments for why it's always beneficial to pile on more public debt.

In Switzerland the people have put limits on public indebtedness. And the orthodoxy tends to be more Austrian and less "Keynesian" here than most countries. Do we see Switzerland missing out on "the highest standard of living in human history" you mention above? Or do we see it exceeding most of the rest of the developed world in standard of living?

Also you are probably underestimating the extent to which Austrian ideas play out everywhere, all the time. They may not be fashionable among professional economists. But every time a flexible price provides the information driving different people to allocate their resources in certain ways (hint: all the time), that is what is happening. So to imply that the school of thought is "invalid" is out to lunch.
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Old 27.02.2015, 20:11
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The standard of living is not all that good, the food is shittier these days and people are poorer in many ways compared to before, my grandfather could afford a big house, a car, a stay at home wife and 2 kids on 1 salary, I cannot afford that now in Denmark, no way in hell so my living standard as a man has gone DOWN because of Keynesian idiocy and government worship. This despite huge technological improvements (which sure as hell was not caused by keynesian idiocy), so basically you have machines and organization in the private sector that is much much more efficient and STILL the living standards have gone down. That is a testament to the failure of Keynesian economics, that even with much better technology it delivers worse results.
That's not a coherent argument. You can't use phrases like 'Keynesian idiocy' and expect to be taken seriously. (Yea, I admit to calling you a 'libertadian' earlier but that was in a humorous context; now we're in 'serious mode'). You have to come up with something else than anecdotes to further your case.

I claim that pretty much all the technologies (electronics, computing, genetics, etc) that are currently booming and adding to our standard of living came from either during or the aftermath of that great period of Keynesian expansion: the second world war. Waddya think? (Don't forget to consider this is also the period when countries started dropping the gold standard).

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Hopefully you can at least see that what you have written above does not follow.
No. You haven't shown it, it's just an opinion that flies in the face of the evidence. I'm a rationalist: I'll use the decision theory that shows real-world results.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 27.02.2015 at 21:37. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #75  
Old 27.02.2015, 20:32
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

I think we need to be honest with our young friend. There are many advantages to life in Switzerland, but these must be balanced with the many disadvantages:

Advantages

1. The minimum wage which is currently set at 120 000 CHF for every working resident over the age of 40. This is only possible, of course, by compelling everyone under the age of 40 to work for nothing.

2. The kirsch allowance: every resident is entitled to 20 litres of kirsch per year, subsidised by the federal government.

3. Switzerland is a quiet, adult-friendly kind of place because children are educated in mountain camps from the age of 3 to 16, far from civilised folk. This makes Switzerland much nicer than other countries which allow children to run riot in the streets with their bicycles and skateboards and suchlike.

4. Everyone is welcome to milk any goat he sees as he goes about his business. All goats are held in common, although nominated farmers are obliged to feed them and provide veterinary care. There is nothing like a mouthful of fresh goat's milk straight from the teat! Mmmm!

5. French people are forbidden from entering the German speaking part of Switzerland, with the exception of the city of Basel which is almost French anyway so it doesn't count.

Disadvantages

1. The number one disadvantage is the Luftsteuer, a tax levied upon the fresh Alpine air, which everyone is obliged to pay unless he can prove to the authorities that he has his own air supply.

2. Switzerland claims to be a free nation, but is actually a vassal state of the Kingdom of Hungary, and thus subject to the unjust laws of the European Union even though it isn't a member. It's a disgrace!

3. The water is undrinkable on account of its being too cold straight from the tap. This may be alleviated somewhat by making it into tea.

4. Swiss people talk funny.


I hope this helps our young friend to make up his mind. Switzerland is great, but not every fish likes brazil nuts, as the saying goes.
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  #76  
Old 27.02.2015, 20:44
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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I think we need to be honest with our young friend. There are many advantages to life in Switzerland, but these must be balanced with the many disadvantages:
DB, the jokes are over. We've gotta be all serious now and state our positions in the great economic argument: demand or supply side? Keynes or Hayek? Left or right? I admit, I'm somewhat on the left (indeed, I'd say I'm an extreme champagne socialist), but I do have some libertarian sympathies (mainly bitcoins and gimp suits) and so tend to be on the Keynes side.

I suggest to watch this and decide where you stand (but duh, notice who wins...):

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Old 27.02.2015, 21:02
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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[...]Keynesian expansion (credit boom) has given us the highest standard of living in human history?
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[...]
Hopefully you can at least see that what you have written above does not follow.
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No. You haven't shown it, it's just an opinion that flies in the face of the evidence. I'm a rationalist: I'll use the decision theory that shows real-world results.

I didn't try to show "it" (that it doesn't follow), since that much should be obvious (merely being a case of correlation not being causation). Was just pointing it out.

I'm impressed by your certainty level. After dismissing any possibility of the Dunning–Kruger effect influencing your certainty levels, and appreciating the way you've engaged with what I've said, I have made the following note to myself. If I ever decide move back to a country where views like yours prevail (cos I sure don't live in such a place at the moment), I'll seek your opinion on which country's bureaucrats are best at magicking the money tree.
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Old 27.02.2015, 21:13
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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I'll seek your opinion on which country's bureaucrats are best at magicking the money tree.
Well, I'll give you one opinion, since you actually live in such a country (ever notice the rate at which the SNB are still printing money?), if you're trying to form a startup (which I notice you're doing and I already have), you'll appreciate the existence of plentiful credit...
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Old 27.02.2015, 21:43
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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DB, the jokes are over. We've gotta be all serious now and state our positions in the great economic argument[...]
Hey you started it

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I suggest to watch this and decide where you stand (but duh, notice who wins...):
[...]
Heh, thanks for the link (I wonder if the forum's youtube integration can be changed to not try and force flash - the video is watchable on youtube without flash). Someone has put a lot of effort in there.

Regarding who wins (not that I would want to read anything in to this!). There are two interleaved scenarios: a boxing match, and a court room debate. The narrative appears to be that Hayek is shown winning the argument in both settings. In the boxing ring, Keynes is depicted recovering from a knock down, to be awarded an underserved victory. In the court room, I didn't think it was clear if anyone had won. Did I miss something?

The stuff on the war was some nice satire, showing just how much doublethink you have to engage in to go for some of this stuff.

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If I ever decide move back to a country where views like yours prevail (cos I sure don't live in such a place at the moment), I'll seek your opinion on which country's bureaucrats are best at magicking the money tree.
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Well, I'll give you one opinion, since you actually live in such a country (ever notice the rate at which the SNB are still printing money?), if you're trying to form a startup (which I notice you're doing and I already have), you'll appreciate the existence of plentiful credit...
Bad examples? Printing money... to maintain price stability, not force price inflation. Plentiful credit via private sector borrowing... yes, so what: price stability helps both parties know what they're getting in to at the start.

You do appear pretty confused over the nature of this place's fiscal and monetary and economic reality. What examples can you find here of deficit spending to "stimulate demand" (this is what I meant to refer to with the magic money tree -- sorry I was unclear)? Would you really characterise the place's success as having as a primary factor "Keynesian expansion (credit boom)", to use your own words?
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Old 28.02.2015, 07:19
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Re: Danish guy that wants to move to Switzerland

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Bad examples? Printing money... to maintain price stability, not force price inflation. Plentiful credit via private sector borrowing... yes, so what: price stability helps both parties know what they're getting in to at the start.

You do appear pretty confused over the nature of this place's fiscal and monetary and economic reality. What examples can you find here of deficit spending to "stimulate demand"
Economics is really simple - it's all about money supply. Problem is, this is embedded in a second-order chaotic system. Parsing differences such as between fiscal and monetary policy misses the point. (Both economic schools get bogged-down in these details because they didn't have the kind of modeling we have now). Also, whatever Switzerland wants to do, it's not isolated from the rest of the world.

Case in point - large flows of money into the Anglo-Saxon financial system are looking for assets to buy (startups are sucking on this teat, stock markets are at record highs). Just buying the Swiss Franc has historically been a good bet so money flows into Switzerland pushing the franc up; two bad things happen now - export sales dry-up and, internally, there's deflation as people put-off capital expenditure since it's always cheaper to do that tomorrow. Therefore SNB (a proxy for the Swiss government) prints money to ameliorate these two things; i.e. to "stimulate demand". QED.
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