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Old 25.03.2015, 16:40
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Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

I have heard on a number of occasions that companies do not like to take on staff who are 50 or older, one of the reasons being that the cost to employer increases dramatically after 50.
As I recently progressed into this segment of the market (> 50) and are also looking for other employment opportunities in Switz, I’m wondering if this rumour is true and if it is how much are increases?
I’ve been checking my pay slips and the deduction amounts and percentages have been pretty constant and definitely did not increase when I reached 50

Does anyone know what the employer / employee compulsory contribution rates are (percentage) and when do they increase?
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Old 25.03.2015, 17:09
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

Well for starters it's not a rumor but a fact, unless you have some skill that is crazy in demand 50 is your end of life as a marketable product, even then with the skill set of a nordic god the chances of getting a job are slim to non and companies would prefer to get somebody younger even with a lower skill set ….and if you happen to be a woman then your ' consume by date, see bottom of can' is much lower in fact as it goes it seems that 40 is the woman's version of 50.
Yes and for the others who will now undoubtably jump all over me, I do know that a she or a he got a job despite being over 40/50 but it not a common thing and I would not bet good money on a positive outcome.
So if I were you knowing what I know now, I would suggest to save yourself years of hassle, frustration, tears and disappointment and either shoot yourself or get used to a new life as a low paid drone of some sort.
It's over, nix geht mehr, Rien ne va plus.
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Old 25.03.2015, 17:19
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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Well for starters it's not a rumor but a fact, unless you have some skill that is crazy in demand 50 is your end of life as a marketable product, even then with the skill set of a nordic god the chances of getting a job are slim to non and companies would prefer to get somebody younger even with a lower skill set ….and if you happen to be a woman then your ' consume by date, see bottom of can' is much lower in fact as it goes it seems that 40 is the woman's version of 50.
Yes and for the others who will now undoubtably jump all over me, I do know that a she or a he got a job despite being over 40/50 but it not a common thing and I would not bet good money on a positive outcome.
So if I were you knowing what I know now, I would suggest to save yourself years of hassle, frustration, tears and disappointment and either shoot yourself or get used to a new life as a low paid drone of some sort.
It's over, nix geht mehr, Rien ne va plus.

Thanks for the sleepless nights.... :-()


Do you know the contribution rates, lets say I want to "control" my HR people to make sure they are deducting enough...
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Old 25.03.2015, 17:19
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

The rumour is question is not whether 50+ newly unemployed will ever find work again, but whether deductions from wages are higher.

Some of my colleagues get more holiday allowance as they age. Can't say about deductions though.
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Old 25.03.2015, 17:44
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

It looks like 55 is the magic age:

http://www.bsv.admin.ch/themen/vorso...x.html?lang=de

Das für die Altersleistung angesparte Kapital nennt man das Altersguthaben. Dieses Guthaben wird aus den jährlichen Altersgutschriften inklusive eines Zinses von mindestens 2,0 % (2009-2010-2011), 1,5 % (ab 2012) und 1,75 % (ab 2014) gebildet . Die Höhe der Altersgutschriften wird in Prozenten des koordinierten Lohnes festgesetzt und richtet sich nach dem jeweiligen Alter und Geschlecht der Versicherten. Dabei gelten folgende Ansätze :

Altersjahr Prozentsatz des koordinierten Lohnes

Männer Frauen
25-34 25-34 7%
35-44 35-44 10%
45-54 45-54 15%
55-65 55-64 18%

Hmmm don't know why the table tabs don't work... anyway, first colume age (male), second age (female) third % of coordinated salary.
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Old 25.03.2015, 17:44
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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The rumour is question is not whether 50+ newly unemployed will ever find work again, but whether deductions from wages are higher.

Some of my colleagues get more holiday allowance as they age. Can't say about deductions though.
2nd pillar deductions (and corresponding contributions from the employer) increase based on your age bracket. 7%, 10%, etc.
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Old 25.03.2015, 19:20
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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It looks like 55 is the magic age:

http://www.bsv.admin.ch/themen/vorso...x.html?lang=de

Das für die Altersleistung angesparte Kapital nennt man das Altersguthaben. Dieses Guthaben wird aus den jährlichen Altersgutschriften inklusive eines Zinses von mindestens 2,0 % (2009-2010-2011), 1,5 % (ab 2012) und 1,75 % (ab 2014) gebildet . Die Höhe der Altersgutschriften wird in Prozenten des koordinierten Lohnes festgesetzt und richtet sich nach dem jeweiligen Alter und Geschlecht der Versicherten. Dabei gelten folgende Ansätze :

Altersjahr Prozentsatz des koordinierten Lohnes

Männer Frauen
25-34 25-34 7%
35-44 35-44 10%
45-54 45-54 15%
55-65 55-64 18%

Hmmm don't know why the table tabs don't work... anyway, first colume age (male), second age (female) third % of coordinated salary.
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2nd pillar deductions (and corresponding contributions from the employer) increase based on your age bracket. 7%, 10%, etc.

Thanks guys


So if i understand it correctly then it will be the PK/BVG deduction that will increase. Assuming the salary stays the same (no increase) is it likely that the 2nd pillar contributions could increase for other reasons (not as per the fixed age group increases?


Going back to the tables the biggest increase is from 5% which comes in effect at 45, and even then the actual increases on a normal salary don't seem to be large enough reason to justify not employing people above 50 (or 55) if the age groups in the tables provided are accurate.


BTW is 64 / 65 a compulsory retirement age for women / men, or is it optional?
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Old 25.03.2015, 19:23
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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is 64 / 65 a compulsory retirement age for women / men, or is it optional?
Optional, but if you become unemployed, you won't get any unemployment money after that age.

Tom
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Old 25.03.2015, 20:04
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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It looks like 55 is the magic age:

http://www.bsv.admin.ch/themen/vorso...x.html?lang=de

Das für die Altersleistung angesparte Kapital nennt man das Altersguthaben. Dieses Guthaben wird aus den jährlichen Altersgutschriften inklusive eines Zinses von mindestens 2,0 % (2009-2010-2011), 1,5 % (ab 2012) und 1,75 % (ab 2014) gebildet . Die Höhe der Altersgutschriften wird in Prozenten des koordinierten Lohnes festgesetzt und richtet sich nach dem jeweiligen Alter und Geschlecht der Versicherten. Dabei gelten folgende Ansätze :

Altersjahr Prozentsatz des koordinierten Lohnes

Männer Frauen
25-34 25-34 7%
35-44 35-44 10%
45-54 45-54 15%
55-65 55-64 18%

Hmmm don't know why the table tabs don't work... anyway, first colume age (male), second age (female) third % of coordinated salary.
Those pension contributions are split 50% with employee & it's only mandatory on a max of 59,925 CHF, 1.5% extra equals 899 CHF so it's not a big deal at all.

For some bizarre reason older people get paid more in CH because of age & nothing else, this is the real problem as they are less competitive & often less productive as 30 year olds.
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Old 25.03.2015, 20:17
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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Those pension contributions are split 50% with employee & it's only mandatory on a max of 59,925 CHF, 1.5% extra equals 899 CHF so it's not a big deal at all.

For some bizarre reason older people get paid more in CH because of age & nothing else, this is the real problem as they are less competitive & often less productive as 30 year olds.
I beg to differ, the stats show otherwise, more experience, as in been there, done that, less sick days, no being boozed out Monday morning, the kids have kids of their own, so no popping off to pick up little Klaus from the kiddy corral, no days off because said Klaus is poorly, the "elderly" know that they are only tolerated at the workplace and will as a rule work like the devil is snapping at their wrinkly slack asses, as it may well be at any time.
So I really don't think it it always about the money and the cost, methinks it's more a kind of: "god this guy is older than me and he may know more than I do and is perhaps better and more efficient than I am so therefore he/she may make me look like the fool that I am and show me up in front of MY boss, I can't have that so I'm not gonna give that a chance"
Also I find that a lot of younger people have difficulty in assuming a role of seniority when instinct tells them to look to the "elderly" for guidance.
Freud would maybe say it all boils down to a mummy and daddy issue.
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Old 26.03.2015, 12:50
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

On many occasions during my apprenticeship did I hear these words from my journeymen:

“Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill”


Seems like they never worked in Switz

Jokes aside, other than plausible real life experiences, there is no concrete evidence to support the employer cost increase excuse / theory?

Last edited by swissvan; 26.03.2015 at 12:52. Reason: corrections
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Old 28.03.2015, 07:05
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

The over fifties usually get more holiday and that costs the employer. The older employees are on average off sick more, learn slowly and have trouble adapting to change. Every one is pleased when they retire.
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Old 28.03.2015, 10:20
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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The over fifties usually get more holiday and that costs the employer. The older employees are on average off sick more, learn slowly and have trouble adapting to change. Every one snapsterone is pleased when they retire.
ftfy
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Old 28.03.2015, 11:50
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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Jokes aside, other than plausible real life experiences, there is no concrete evidence to support the employer cost increase excuse / theory?
At least at one company I know of the only evidence of higher costs to older employees is that they tend to be paid higher salaries. Which, given that in an internal study the 50+ employees - those left standing that is - showed higher productivity than younger folks, is not surprising. Employees who contribute more to the company bottom line are better paid.

Snapsterone's post shows the pervasive mindset one finds here in Switzerland, though - and remember, no justification is needed to fire anyone here.

It will be interesting, in the Chinese curse sort of way, to see how the widespread trend of firing 50+ employees plays out in years to come. The Swiss AHV system is based on working 44 years - yet today one's career is usually cut short by 10-15 years. That's a lot of missing AHV payments...
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Old 30.03.2015, 14:13
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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1. The over fifties usually get more holiday and that costs the employer.


2. The older employees are on average off sick more, learn slowly and have trouble adapting to change.


3. Every one is pleased when they retire.


I'll take the bait, even though experience tells me I shouldn't.


1. Yep, its a privilege usually bestowed on loyal employees who have long service with a company. In fact it probably saves companies money as it's cheaper to provide a few extra days leave compared increasing salary. Amazingly long service only comes with age.


2. Do you have a link to any reliable statistics that prove this?


3. Did you really mean pleased?
One day when I retire I hope everyone I work with is pleased for me. Much better than they if they are grateful.
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Old 30.03.2015, 14:51
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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At least at one company I know of the only evidence of higher costs to older employees is that they tend to be paid higher salaries. Which, given that in an internal study the 50+ employees - those left standing that is - showed higher productivity than younger folks, is not surprising. Employees who contribute more to the company bottom line are better paid.

Snapsterone's post shows the pervasive mindset one finds here in Switzerland, though - and remember, no justification is needed to fire anyone here.

It will be interesting, in the Chinese curse sort of way, to see how the widespread trend of firing 50+ employees plays out in years to come. The Swiss AHV system is based on working 44 years - yet today one's career is usually cut short by 10-15 years. That's a lot of missing AHV payments...
Then people will get lower AHV pensions as it's based on the no of years contributions & the level of salary in those years. However by law you MUST pay the min payment so you will only get roughly half the pension for those years with min payments.

Personally working for 36 years was enough for, life is too short & needs to be enjoyed before it's too late.
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Old 30.03.2015, 14:51
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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I'll take the bait, even though experience tells me I shouldn't.


1. Yep, its a privilege usually bestowed on loyal employees who have long service with a company. In fact it probably saves companies money as it's cheaper to provide a few extra days leave compared increasing salary. Amazingly long service only comes with age.


2. Do you have a link to any reliable statistics that prove this?


3. Did you really mean pleased?
One day when I retire I hope everyone I work with is pleased for me. Much better than they if they are grateful.

1. It isn`t usually a privilege. It is usually a part of the Gesamarbeitsvertrag (GAV.) Five weeks after so many years and another week according to age.

2.Full Report: Sickness Absence in the Labour Market, February 2014: (Office for National Statistics)

"Sickness absence increases with age but falls after eligibility for the state pension." (This is drawn on UK stats. from the Office for National Statistics. I chose an English language example as this is an English language forum but the Swiss research backs it up) That is point four of the reports "Key Points"


3.mean pleased? Yes I did but that is based on personal unsubstantiated observation.
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Old 30.03.2015, 17:16
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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1. It isn`t usually a privilege. It is usually a part of the Gesamarbeitsvertrag (GAV.) Five weeks after so many years and another week according to age.

2.Full Report: Sickness Absence in the Labour Market, February 2014: (Office for National Statistics)

"Sickness absence increases with age but falls after eligibility for the state pension." (This is drawn on UK stats. from the Office for National Statistics. I chose an English language example as this is an English language forum but the Swiss research backs it up) That is point four of the reports "Key Points"


3.mean pleased? Yes I did but that is based on personal unsubstantiated observation.

1. Sorry my use of the word privilege was probably not the best choice, I did not intend to use it in the context that it is an option. Perhaps benefit would have been better? Anyhow I'm not denying that people over 49 get more leave but rather that the negative effects to a company are exaggerated.


2. Pse post a link to a Swiss version, its only fair to compare Swiss with Swiss. While it's logical that the older you get the more ailments you are likely to suffer, I'm not so sure that the average Swiss old timer suffers as much as the English version, have you seen those old pensioners go hiking? Note pensioners, not those still employed i.e. taking sick days to go hiking....:-)




Ok to sum it up so far:
Negatives for the over 50's


1. Leave entitlement excessive compared to those under 49.
2. Increased pillar 2 pension costs to the employer.
3. Take more sick days (subject to local statistics and not confirmed).
4. Don't like change and learn new stuff to slowly.
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Old 30.03.2015, 17:34
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

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1. Sorry my use of the word privilege was probably not the best choice, I did not intend to use it in the context that it is an option. Perhaps benefit would have been better? Anyhow I'm not denying that people over 49 get more leave but rather that the negative effects to a company are exaggerated.


2. Pse post a link to a Swiss version, its only fair to compare Swiss with Swiss. While it's logical that the older you get the more ailments you are likely to suffer, I'm not so sure that the average Swiss old timer suffers as much as the English version, have you seen those old pensioners go hiking? Note pensioners, not those still employed i.e. taking sick days to go hiking....:-)




Ok to sum it up so far:
Negatives for the over 50's


1. Leave entitlement excessive compared to those under 49.
2. Increased pillar 2 pension costs to the employer.
3. Take more sick days (subject to local statistics and not confirmed).
4. Don't like change and learn new stuff to slowly.
"have you seen those old pensioners go hiking? "

Have you seen those 55 year old building workers trying to hump 20 Kilo sacks of cement or shovel concrete around? Try it you might like it. They get no sick pay at all for the first two days and then only 80% so they think twice about calling off sick.

Check out the CH statistics for yourself if you think that Swiss OAPs are fitter than Brits.

I hope that you are not writing this during working hours. I may be your boss.
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Old 31.03.2015, 12:29
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Re: Increase of compulsory employer and employee salary deductions (AHV, BVG etc...)

Apparently 45 is the new 50:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-wo...etire/41344272

"Politicians see a need for older workers to work longer, but only 1% of Swiss job ads are aimed at people over 45."


As above, interesting times...
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