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  #21  
Old 06.05.2015, 10:52
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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Did she sign the contract though? She said she has accepted the transfer offer but nowhere does she say that she actually signed the contract.
I read it again and thought she meant hadn't signed a lower salary offer? Hopefully, she will be on to clarify.

If she has only verbally accepted, then she can say thanks but no thanks, although how that will sit her with her current boss knowing she wants a move is another matter. Certainly if it is only verbal and she gets a lawyer involved on something based on a presumption, I think her future with the firm is bleak.
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  #22  
Old 06.05.2015, 11:03
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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I read it again and thought she meant hadn't signed a lower salary offer? Hopefully, she will be on to clarify.

If she has only verbally accepted, then she can say thanks but no thanks, although how that will sit her with her current boss knowing she wants a move is another matter. Certainly if it is only verbal and she gets a lawyer involved on something based on a presumption, I think her future with the firm is bleak.
A verbal contract is binding in Switzerland

(proving it is different matter but from what we know, i think it won't be too mcuh of a problem to prove a verbal offer/contract was made)
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Old 06.05.2015, 11:13
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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It's assuming that seems to be the core of the problem here Trev'
Couldn't agree more - that's the exact point to discuss... You happen to know where my wife works and I have a similar stack of those letters that were formal addendums to the existing work contract. They never mentioned salary and as mentioned does her bank have a policy to both never pay less or more in an internal transfer. I know that's idiotic, but it seemed the Swiss way of doing this sort of thing to me... maybe it's not. No idea.

Only time money was discuss was when moving to other countries as you get some money for the move, maybe an expat package including rent or even just to agree how to translate your salary into a local one according to some HR charts. Hint: If you leave CH do you typically get a little less as most other countries have lower costs of living.
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Old 06.05.2015, 11:29
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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A verbal contract is binding in Switzerland

(proving it is different matter but from what we know, i think it won't be too mcuh of a problem to prove a verbal offer/contract was made)
However an employment contract can be cancelled for any reason at any time, so nothing is gained by trying to prove anything at the end of the day.
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Old 07.05.2015, 09:42
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I'm looking into the email security and saving anything that could be important. That one could be hard to prove, so the best is to have all info copied somewhere. Thanks for the hint.

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Only option: learn to never accept a job before knowing and discussing salary.
That's sure a good advice, but as I'm employed, and have not signed, I continue having my old position and salary.

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Absolutely not true. I know several people who fought successfully their employers (and their illegal and/or abusive practices), got the justice, and then found new job happily.

Luckily, Switzerland is the country where law is above individual employers and illegal HR practices.
I'm happy to know! Will try anything else first, but at last resort, it seems a valid option.

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Common, that's not exactly what happened - she was offered an internal transfer. Every company I have ever worked at had a simple rule: you will not earn less. On the flip side do I also know so large Swiss banks having the rule that you cannot be offered more if you transfer internally... (which is the very reason why so many switch from one bank to the other and back...)

I think it's a fair assumption that if a line manager in your company knows your salary, offers you a position and nothing else is said you simply continue to get your salary as is. For internal transfers do you typically not even sign a new contract, but get a one-pager saying PapaGoose will from date x on change to the position of y working in department z.
.
Exactly, if nothing discussed, it remains the same, on a previous company, my new boss adjusted my salary up!

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You sound like you are at this point that the bridge with the new guy is burned(?). If yes, escalate it:
1. Talk to your current line manager and discuss the case openly with him. Maybe he wants you back? No need to be ashamed of quitting on him before - openly tell him why you wanted the other position and that you now want your old one back as he might have the less appealing job but clearly is the better manager... trust me, this works with a lot of people...
2. Talk to the new guys superior. Even if you decided to not work for the new guy anymore, he should know. I am heading a department and I really would want to know if my team leaders cock stuff up like this...
3. Make a formal complaint to HR. Not the person who probably sit there with you and the new guy discussing the salary, but whoever the highest HR manager is you can get a hold of. In any decent company did your future ex boss break an entire bunch of policies (that's not necessarily Swiss law, but internal company policies)... no company HR wants managers to poach each others employees to only alienate them with ridiculous behavior afterwards.
4. If absolutely nothing else worked - go one level higher and write to your department head or depending the size of the company CEO directly and express how you did a good job in the past, identify yourself with the company and were super motivated to get an internal transfer - only to be forced to leave if no solution is found.
I love those ideas Treverus, specially when I see Merkel is on my side!
My mentor is on the C-level and I have forwarded him a summary of the whole chronological description of the negotiation that started in Feb. He was aware of it as we meet regularly and has both the authority and common sense to support me in finding a solution.

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But I'd suggest it might be a good idea to talk to a lawyer anyway - not with a view to take your employer to court, but simply to find out what your legal position is.
I have found some options, where I can look for support:

https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/sd/de/i...a/english.html

http://www.gerichte-zh.ch/organisati...sauskunft.html

And also I have legal insurance on my health insurance, which I didn't know, they have a hotline and I can also have one "Beratung" per year.

I'm sharing this as other people might benefit as well.

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Interesting attitude. You do understand that some lawyers are giving advise here on the forum ? Don't be too surprised in case you don't get any feedback from any of them.
From your attitude I would guess you are a lawyer, which just enforce my case, that it is a waste of time:

you answer a post with no extra contend, implies a treat and I might get a bill for that Just kidding.

I would be happy to see one lawyer out there to prove I'm wrong in my view. Think this way, I have only tried one apple and it happen to be rotten, the experience had surely kept me from trying other apples, but open to reconsider my view.

On the other hand, what I meant was that I would hate to use a lawyer right now, before I had explored all other options. Hope this clarify and I excuse if what I wrote hurt you personally.

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A verbal contract is binding in Switzerland

(proving it is different matter but from what we know, i think it won't be too mcuh of a problem to prove a verbal offer/contract was made)
I have a written confirmation per e-mail that the first offer has been made and that I have accepted, even another an e-mail with him saying: "looking forward to welcoming at my team!"

Would this suffice? Versus a proper employment contract signed?

Last edited by 3Wishes; 07.05.2015 at 10:48. Reason: keeping replies together
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  #26  
Old 07.05.2015, 10:49
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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...That's sure a good advice, but as I'm employed, and have not signed, I continue having my old position and salary...
Maybe I missed it, but what's wrong with this? Obviously not exactly what you wanted, but you do still have a job and you haven't taken a pay cut.
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Old 07.05.2015, 11:02
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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Maybe I missed it, but what's wrong with this? Obviously not exactly what you wanted, but you do still have a job and you haven't taken a pay cut.
Exactly, my situation does not change, but you can imagine the disappointment, I had been preparing myself for the new position, build expectations, changed personal plans, as I was to make my German exam in June and holidays, which I adjusted in order to be available.

On the other note, the department I am on will be made redundant sooner or later. It's not a long term solution.

(I just saw the e-mail with the explanation on how to quote, Many thanks! I will in the future, ok?)
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Old 07.05.2015, 11:09
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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I'm looking into the email security and saving anything that could be important. That one could be hard to prove, so the best is to have all info copied somewhere. Thanks for the hint.



That's sure a good advice, but as I'm employed, and have not signed, I continue having my old position and salary.



I'm happy to know! Will try anything else first, but at last resort, it seems a valid option.



Exactly, if nothing discussed, it remains the same, on a previous company, my new boss adjusted my salary up!



I love those ideas Treverus, specially when I see Merkel is on my side!
My mentor is on the C-level and I have forwarded him a summary of the whole chronological description of the negotiation that started in Feb. He was aware of it as we meet regularly and has both the authority and common sense to support me in finding a solution.



I have found some options, where I can look for support:

https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/sd/de/i...a/english.html

http://www.gerichte-zh.ch/organisati...sauskunft.html

And also I have legal insurance on my health insurance, which I didn't know, they have a hotline and I can also have one "Beratung" per year.

I'm sharing this as other people might benefit as well.



From your attitude I would guess you are a lawyer, which just enforce my case, that it is a waste of time:

you answer a post with no extra contend, implies a treat and I might get a bill for that Just kidding.

I would be happy to see one lawyer out there to prove I'm wrong in my view. Think this way, I have only tried one apple and it happen to be rotten, the experience had surely kept me from trying other apples, but open to reconsider my view.

On the other hand, what I meant was that I would hate to use a lawyer right now, before I had explored all other options. Hope this clarify and I excuse if what I wrote hurt you personally.



I have a written confirmation per e-mail that the first offer has been made and that I have accepted, even another an e-mail with him saying: "looking forward to welcoming at my team!"

Would this suffice? Versus a proper employment contract signed?
If you were offered a new contract and refused or wanted changes then the contract lapses if the employer refuses to change.
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Old 07.05.2015, 11:18
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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If you were offered a new contract and refused or wanted changes then the contract lapses if the employer refuses to change.
I have made a counter-offer, it was not accepted and I then accepted their original offer without changes and it was then denied. That's the root of my post here.

Can a company refrain from offering? Even if I accepted it as it was? How long is the offer valid if not stated otherwise.
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Old 07.05.2015, 11:22
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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I would be happy to see one lawyer out there to prove I'm wrong in my view. Think this way, I have only tried one apple and it happen to be rotten, the experience had surely kept me from trying other apples, but open to reconsider my view.
You have consulted one lawyer for two phone calls and one meeting and were surprised to receive a bill. As someone else stated in the only other thread you opened/contributed to since 2012: Only on your planet would you not receive a bill for such services.

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you answer a post with no extra contend, implies a treat and I might get a bill for that Just kidding.
No kidding: I only offer treats once my bills are settled in time.
I might be tempted to consider threats if they are not.
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Old 07.05.2015, 11:26
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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I have made a counter-offer.... blah
= "I have rejected the company's offer."
Which means that the company was at their sole discretion not to renew the offer you rejected.
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Old 07.05.2015, 11:28
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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I have made a counter-offer, it was not accepted and I then accepted their original offer without changes and it was then denied. That's the root of my post here.

Can a company refrain from offering? Even if I accepted it as it was? How long is the offer valid if not stated otherwise.
The offer was valid until you rejected it, which you did with your counter proposal.
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Old 08.05.2015, 09:20
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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= "I have rejected the company's offer."
Which means that the company was at their sole discretion not to renew the offer you rejected.
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No kidding: I only offer treats once my bills are settled in time.
I might be tempted to consider threats if they are not.
Great! I got an answer and a spell check, I'm starting to believe in apples again
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Old 08.05.2015, 09:22
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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Great! I got an answer and a spell check, I'm starting to believe in apples again
Wait until you receive my invoice. Care to share your address ?
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Old 08.05.2015, 09:56
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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Wait until you receive my invoice. Care to share your address ?
I wouldn't send an invoice, chance you may get sued for something !!
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Old 08.05.2015, 10:33
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

Lotus, apart from very good Trev's advices, I think you should consult a lawyer on your exact situation.

From what I read in your post: "I have a written confirmation per e-mail that the first offer has been made and that I have accepted, even another an e-mail with him saying: "looking forward to welcoming at my team!" - it seems to me that you have accepted the offer, it has been confirmed, and then your boss tried to reduce you the salary post-factum. This can not be exactly legal nor ethical, so it is worth checking.

But then, the question is: is it worth fighting? What is potentially that you can gain? (apart from e.g. someone from HR making someone appologize to you?). If you are right, what is the best possible outcome for you? I think this is important for you to understand.
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Old 08.05.2015, 11:29
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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Lotus, apart from very good Trev's advices, I think you should consult a lawyer on your exact situation.
I'm really glad I could vent my feelings here and not somewhere else, I'm in a much better place today and thinking rationally about it all, not emotionally charged, which is very important. I am consulting a the state official office http://www.gerichte-zh.ch/organisati...sauskunft.html

And will update the forum with the outcomes.

On the other hand.
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If you are right, what is the best possible outcome for you? I think this is important for you to understand.
Being right just satisfies the ego, your question is the one that matters, what will I gain with it? I have thought about it. And I question if they do offer the job again because it is my right (if this is the case), how would be the working environment? Knowing that it is against my future's boss will and that he practices unethical behavior?

The best might be to go back to my current boss, explain what has happened, excuse for the inconvenience and move from there.
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Old 08.05.2015, 19:08
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

After the visit today, it seems I have a case with the first offer, we have enough written evidence and I could go to court. Would I? That's the question.

On the second offer in my case, as an advice for others:

1) a job offer has a validity and needs to be stated on the offer, 2 days, a week, if not stated, its open for 7 days due to common practice.

2) a counter offer does not necessarily means the original offer was denied, and the original offer can be accepted within the validity of the offer.

3) a company can cancel an offer after the validity expires. Or cancel the position all together.

Again, I could argue. Would I? Another open question. I guess it depends a lot in how it develops in my current department.

Many thanks for the heads up, advices and even the free spell check
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Old 08.05.2015, 19:47
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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After the visit today, it seems I have a case with the first offer, we have enough written evidence and I could go to court. Would I? That's the question.
It's good you went to a lawyer to check. Employment law and breach of rules around employment is a serious matter in CH. Most employers are simply not educated in employment law and just unintentionally screw up things.

In my case I've been let go once when my notice period ended, but I countered with a 50% reduction offer, which was accepted verbally, but never put in written form (so effectively we didn't sign the termination papers, I was not let go and continued to work 100%). Turns out my contract stated that all changes to it required a written form (which is the case with most employment contracts in CH, I would say), so a verbal negotiation was - although being a valid contract in other situations - not binding. When I later received just 50% of my usual salary, I ended up being at a lawyer (using legal insurance) in 2 days.
The lawyer sent an invoice to the insurance of around 1200 CHF afterwards - and saved me 2 months of my full salary, so it was certainly worth it. All he did is explained me my options, we chose a path to go down, and he sent 2 "official" letters to the company informing them about what's going to happen and where they need to obey the rules. No threats. The job was of course gone, but that's natural I guess. I got paid correctly and we - hopefully - split not hating each other. I didn't want to stay anywhere, where they trick me out of my contract or money.

My friend prevously has been offered a lateral move in another multinational, but with much more responsibility. He prepared himself for the new job for about 3 months, did a test period of 3 months with the new role and they wanted to accept him at the new department - for the same salary. He wanted to negotiate salary according to the new job description he was doing, which was denied, so he backed out, turned the transfer down and kept his old 9-5 role at the company. No hard feelings on either side (he was maybe disappointed, though).

The biggest mistake was here the company announcing your change of position before everything's been signed, agreed and taken care of. To back out from such a public announcement is pretty bad on the management as well as on the personal level.

If you want to stay and do your old job with the (assumedly nice) old boss, I think no feelings have been badly hurt, depending on how you walked out on him. If you are OK continuing whatever you've been doing, you can stay under the radar for a month and then all will be well. I wouldn't go to court as you will probably have zero gains from it (read: maybe some money, but certainly a bad taste in the mouth and a questionable job reference).

If you want to still switch regardless of what has happened, you could offer your services to the new department's head, stating your salary claims "if they were still interested in having you". Maybe with another line manager, if that is possible. Remember you have the moral (and legal) high ground against them now.

If you feel the air got a little scarce around you, just stay put and start looking asap.

Anyhow, keep us informed and good luck!

Last edited by user137; 08.05.2015 at 19:57.
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Old 09.05.2015, 09:40
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

In English, we have a saying:

"Don't throw the baby out with the bath water".

Think of the effective consequences of your choices. If being proven right isolates you in a hostile working environment where you will most likely get lynched for your next mistake..is that where you want to be?
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