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  #41  
Old 09.05.2015, 20:00
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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In English, we have a saying:

"Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"
You are right, now its either throwing the water or the baby
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  #42  
Old 09.05.2015, 23:52
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

I don't understand: it is a bad offer, you would be demotivated from day 0, turn it down and look for something else. There is not obligation to make good offers and there is no obligation to work in bad conditions.
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  #43  
Old 09.05.2015, 23:57
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

I am always told the same by my wife as the previous comments tbh. Switzerland and FL follow the same customs generally being small countries with mostly the same laws.

Unfortunately, unlike the UK and other developed countries, the laws aren't here to protect you in the same way. Generally speaking due to Switzerland being small, everyone within your area that is of importance will know each other, and people have a tendancy to talk too much which can only damage your credability.

I'd just go for a new job and leave your old employer in the background. Last thing you need is the refusal of a decent recommendation and god forbid that prospective new employers would receive negative information from your old employer. Every employer in the developed world will ask for references and often check on them.

Chin up, there is better jobs out there and there are many methods of finding them. Make sure to ask anyone you know of importance if they know of any jobs going or if they have any contacts of importance that you can ask or just ask any friends within your relevant sector if they can speak to their manager etc.
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  #44  
Old 10.05.2015, 17:24
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

Couple of things and excuse me if I have not read through all the answers on here first.
1. Do you work for a big national company or a small one (50 employees or less?).
2) Stick to your position which is reasonable i.e. you either a) stay in your existing position, same salary hours b) accept the transfer at the same salary or c) they accept your counter offer as any reasonable person would.
3) Ask them to confirm the current status to you in writing.
4) Do not terminate the employment contract from your side
5) f they offer you a job at 60% of the salary, ask them to do it in writing and then you reply in writing stating that you decline the offer of the reduced salary and then wait.
6) if and when they terminate your employment contract go to see the RAV http://www.treffpunkt-arbeit.ch as soon as possible after you receive the confirmation in writing. The RAV will advise you of your rights, and will pursue a legal case for your later, if you have one and they will pay the legal costs. Sit, wait and try to stay calm as things will all work out well. You did nothing wrong and if they wish to change the terms of your employment contract and you do not accept, they have no option but to keep you on same salary or terminate your contract and stick to the notice period. At that point you fall into the support network of the RAV including legal help if needed. 7) I see you have since got professional advice and I wish you good luck. Let us know what happens - cheers!

Last edited by isascott; 10.05.2015 at 17:38. Reason: spelling
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  #45  
Old 10.05.2015, 21:49
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

A small question from me:

Do email agreement have an legal power;
I f someone tells you qith en email: WE ARE OK, I WILL HIRE YOU

means that he has in someway been committed to his promise, from legal option;
If refuses after that can you sue him;
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  #46  
Old 11.05.2015, 00:48
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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A small question from me:

Do email agreement have an legal power;
I f someone tells you qith en email: WE ARE OK, I WILL HIRE YOU

means that he has in someway been committed to his promise, from legal option;
If refuses after that can you sue him;
As the employer can terminate a contract at any time, you won't have anything to sue for if the notice period is paid.
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  #47  
Old 11.05.2015, 02:40
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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Do email agreement have an legal power
Yes, though I would never rely on an e-mail, but only on a written contract (which can be sent by e-mail of course)

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If refuses after that can you sue him;
No.

Contracts in Switzerland can be terminated ANY time, with NO need to give ANY reason, as long as the contractual notice periods are being followed. A contract can also be cancelled before the first working day has even happened, but the employer is then obliged to pay the salary for a limited period of time (usually one week which corresponds to the notice period during probation period). Note that at least technically, the same applies in case the 'employee' decides to not take up the job despite previous agreement to do so.
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  #48  
Old 11.05.2015, 08:58
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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You are right, now its either throwing the water or the baby
No, it's not. Since my last post did you add some info which was previously missing: It is not an internal transfer - it is a new position in the same company with a completely new contract. This means that technically you need to quit your old contract, serve your notice period and then start the new job with all the stuff that comes with a new work contract, for example 1-3 months probation period.

So if you go to court, what can you really legally achieve? You can win and the employer is forced to stick to the original offer... and then what? If I was the new boss would I find a reason why you won't survive the notice period... during which I can fire you with five days notice.

Long story short: you really do not have much of a case - you can win a legal battle and feel good about it, but you will not get a permanent job in the court room or a load of cash... you cannot legally force somebody to give you a job to the conditions you want in the long run. Life does not work this way. If you want this thing to work out please forget all your lawyer ideas and talk with the people involved to find a solution.
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  #49  
Old 11.05.2015, 14:03
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

Hi Lotus, I am not a specialist in Swiss law and even less in Swiss labor law but, here are few elements:

- in general an agreement is formed when there is an agreement on the substantial element of such agreement. In general, these are the purpose (ie the task you are going to perform) and the price (ie your salary). --> What do you agree on ? If there was no salary indication, I am not sure the agreement can be said as validly concluded.

- if you receive an offer that contains those two elements and accept it (ie you agree on both elements), a contract is formed. A written doc is not alway needs for a valid contract to exist. But it is useful as an evidence that such agreement exists.

- if you receive an offer containing those two elements and you make a counter offer, it means that you rejected the offer and no agreement is formed. In general, you cannot accept a offer that you rejected it unless the offer specifies otherwise..

Good luck !
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  #50  
Old 11.05.2015, 14:21
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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No, it's not. Since my last post did you add some info which was previously missing: It is not an internal transfer - it is a new position in the same company with a completely new contract.
Not true, it is an internal transfer. With a simplified approach, just one pager stating the changes and complementing my original contract.

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This means that technically you need to quit your old contract, serve your notice period and then start the new job with all the stuff that comes with a new work contract, for example 1-3 months probation period.
Therefore this not apply.

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talk with the people involved to find a solution.
That's exactly what I am doing. At least I know where I stand.

Perhaps that quote was not clear, what I meant by either the baby or the water is, if I want to follow the law, I have no job, if I go for the job I should forget being right and find a compromise, it's either/or solution, I believe.

We are in agreement, Trev.
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  #51  
Old 11.05.2015, 14:35
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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Yes, though I would never rely on an e-mail, but only on a written contract (which can be sent by e-mail of course
The lawyer I saw says that in the e-mail all the elements of a contract can be found, therefore valid. But it depends on each person interpretation.
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  #52  
Old 11.05.2015, 14:41
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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if I go for the job I should forget being right and find a compromise
Sorry to be a party pooper but without "what and how much"... even verbally, I don't see how a contract could exist, as there is no consideration? So I don't think you are right or have a case, simply an unclear situation that you found unacceptable when it did become clear. If you haven't given notice on your existing position just carry on and keep your head down.

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The lawyer I saw says that in the e-mail all the elements of a contract can be found, therefore valid. But it depends on each person interpretation.
So you did discus salary before verbal acceptance then to give full consideration, as previously you said you didn't?

Last edited by Papa Goose; 12.05.2015 at 00:10.
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  #53  
Old 11.05.2015, 14:44
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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Couple of things and excuse me if I have not read through all the answers on here first.
1. Do you work for a big national company or a small one (50 employees or less?).
Big multinational

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2) Stick to your position which is reasonable i.e. you either a) stay in your existing position, same salary hours b) accept the transfer at the same salary or c) they accept your counter offer as any reasonable person would.
This is all beyond reason And you are so right, many thanks for the great answer: supportive and informative.

I'll continue doing my job and look intensively for something else. I've lost all interest in this company, surely, this manager is backed up by the organization, no one does such a thing without acknowledgement of HR and beyond.

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3) Ask them to confirm the current status to you in writing.
4) Do not terminate the employment contract from your side
I will ask and for sure not terminate from my side until I have something better.

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6) if and when they terminate your employment contract go to see the RAV

Sit, wait and try to stay calm as things will all work out well. You did nothing wrong and if they wish to change the terms of your employment contract and you do not accept, they have no option but to keep you on same salary or terminate your contract and stick to the notice period.

At that point you fall into the support network of the RAV including legal help if needed.
That's exactly what I will do! Many thanks again.

Last edited by lotusflower80; 11.05.2015 at 15:18.
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  #54  
Old 11.05.2015, 14:48
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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Sorry to be a party pooper
Excuse not accepted
As Trev mentioned before and several other people, it seems that you either disagree, or didn't understand: in an internal transfer, we assume it is the same, otherwise stated, and I checked the internal employee handbook, it is stated there that the salary remains the same, or discussed, adjusted to a max of 10% up or down.

Last edited by lotusflower80; 11.05.2015 at 15:17. Reason: clarification
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  #55  
Old 11.05.2015, 15:47
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

Exact- however- the conditions are only valid for the notice period. Should they decide that they want more drastic changes, they would have to sack you, respecting the notice period- and then either re-engage you with the new conditions, or decide they perhaps don't like your 'attitude'or whatever- and let you go, without any obligations towards you. Your rights are only valid for the duration of your notice period- but they have to do it all properly and legally. So be careful if you rock the boat- even if we here totally sympathise with you- the reality out there is as above.
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  #56  
Old 11.05.2015, 16:00
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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Exact- however- the conditions are only valid for the notice period. So be careful if you rock the boat- even if we here totally sympathise with you- the reality out there is as above.
THANKS It's great to see so many people interested in this topic and also all the good ideas and support. I do not intend to rock the boat. I am at the same position as when I started this post, I want to avoid conflict, but right now I'm well informed about my rights and limitations.

Harvey Mackay reminds us, "Life isn't fair. It's true, and you still have to deal with it. Whining about it rarely levels the playing field, but learning to rise above it is the ultimate reward."

Last edited by lotusflower80; 11.05.2015 at 17:03. Reason: spelling
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Old 11.05.2015, 17:11
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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Big multinational

I'll continue doing my job and look intensively for something else. I've lost all interest in this company, surely, this manager is backed up by the organization, no one does such a thing without acknowledgement of HR and beyond.
I expect they have also lost interest in you a little too

If they wanted to keep you, they would have found a solution, so i fear that sometime soon, restructuring will take place and most unfortunately you position will disappear. Not nice, but that's the way it is here.
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Old 11.05.2015, 17:23
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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so i fear that sometime soon, restructuring will take place and most unfortunately you position will disappear. Not nice, but that's the way it is here.
As long as the game is played by the rules, winning or losing is both part of it.
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Old 11.05.2015, 17:29
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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I don't understand: it is a bad offer, you would be demotivated from day 0, turn it down and look for something else. There is not obligation to make good offers and there is no obligation to work in bad conditions.
Correct, best summary. That's what I will do.
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Old 11.05.2015, 19:07
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Re: Being offered a job and now my future ex boss changed his mind. Valid?

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As long as the game is played by the rules, winning or losing is both part of it.
The Swiss will always abide by the contract, it's foreigners who expect a pay off are the problem here. There really is very little to win or loose, just read & understand what is written in your contract under notice. It applies to both parties so is truly fair, rather than fair in taxation terms
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