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Old 14.07.2015, 20:18
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Unemployment after sick leave

Hello, I have been on a sick leave for 6 months and employer has decided to terminate my employment contract.

I now need to apply for RAV / Chomage / Unemployment and I guess that I will know from them the answer to my question very soon, but does anyone happen to know if the last 6 months of Sick Leave Pay will be taken into account for the calculation of average earnings over the last 12/24 months?

Before sick leave I was employed for 6 years but I am not sure if my salary (or sick leave pay) during my sick was treated as normal salary subject to AHV / AVS / Social security.

Any ideas? Thanks.
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Old 14.07.2015, 20:23
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

Hello.

Did your employer pay your salary in full for the entire duration of your sick leave or was the sick pay paid by an insurance company?

Is your contract already over or are you still technically an employee of the company? Did the termination of contract arrive by registered letter?

Are you still off sick / do you still have a valid doctor's note detailing that you are 100% unable to work?
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Old 14.07.2015, 20:27
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

Thanks for your response. This is the question I don't know the answer to. For me nothing changed, I was getting monthly salary from my employer. May be employer claimed from Insurance company.

I have returned to work 60% after sick leave and my employment contract was terminated. I am expected to be 100% fit to work in few months (or even sooner is what makes me so sick if my boss'es attitudes). I am working my notice period which will end by end of August.
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Old 14.07.2015, 20:39
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

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Thanks for your response. This is the question I don't know the answer to. For me nothing changed, I was getting monthly salary from my employer. May be employer claimed from Insurance company.

I have returned to work 60% after sick leave and my employment contract was terminated. I am expected to be 100% fit to work in few months (or even sooner is what makes me so sick if my boss'es attitudes). I am working my notice period which will end by end of August.
So you are continuing to work 60% until the end of August when your contract ends and are off sick for the other 40%. Do you have a valid doctor's note until 31st August?

You will officially be unemployed from 1st September. You need to go to your town hall to announce this, they will give you a written confirmation sheet and this you will take to the Unemployment office. However...

If the doctor hasn't already issued a certificate for 40% inability for up to and including the 31st August, considering your employer's attitude which you are fed up with, you could consider asking your doctor for a sick note that certifies you are 100% sick/unfit to work, so that you don't have to go anymore.

What you have to decide though is what you are going to do/be from 1st September. If you are, still, from 1st September off 100% sick, then you don't need/can't start your unemployment benefit as you will be unfit to work and they won't pay out.

Are you on a plan within your company where you can remain off sick and be paid by an insurance scheme even after your contract has been terminated? As this would let you recover properly from what you have been through as well as give you more time to look for work whilst still be on full or at least partial pay from you company's insurance policy. They may even pay out for up to 2 years.

For as long as you are 100% off sick you do not become unemployed. If though for example you are 40% sick and 60% fit, then you will be on unemployment at 60% and the 40% should still be paid by your employer's insurance policy, if you are on one.
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Old 14.07.2015, 23:41
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

This is very helpful, thank you.

But for my initial question, whether my pay during Sick Leave would be considered as Earnings subject to AHV/AVS is there an answer or it really depends on whether employer claimed monies from Insurance or not?
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Old 15.07.2015, 06:42
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

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This is very helpful, thank you.

But for my initial question, whether my pay during Sick Leave would be considered as Earnings subject to AHV/AVS is there an answer or it really depends on whether employer claimed monies from Insurance or not?
If your employer was simply paying your monthly salary and you didn't receive payments from an insurance company, then the AHV/AVS contributions situation ought to have remained unchanged. I was previously employed and off sick, but AHV/AVS wasn't affected in any way during the time of my employment, whether sick or otherwise, because I was paid my normal salary.

If your contract legally ends on 31st August, then it is only from 1st September that something will change concerning AHV/AVS.

Ordinarily if you are paid 100% sick leave after your contract has ended from the insurance company that your employer (which will then become your former employer) has a policy with, then AHV/AVS will not be paid any longer and you will be invoiced for minimum contributions (I believe Fr. 504.-- per annum, payable pro rata) at a later date (could be even over a year later, it was in my case) by the local authorities for the entire period you continue(d) to be off sick 100% as during that time you will be classed as non-working (but not unemployed).

The time that you were off sick and employed by the firm still, definitely counts towards any unemployment benefit you intend to claim.

From the time your contract ends and you remain on 100% sick pay, for me, it is unclear whether this counts towards unemployment benefit as I personally passed from being employed and off sick to being no longer employed but still off sick with the insurance company payments and not into unemployment.
I would ask an unemployment payment office specifically which periods can be taken into consideration as 'working periods' towards your future unemployment benefit from September or later.
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Old 16.07.2015, 09:18
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

The Krankentaggeld payments are not considered for the purpose of calculating the unemployment benefits, only the salary received for the last 6 months is, therefore you working 60% puts you at a disadvantage - you will effectively receive less, as they calculate the 70(80)% of the average for these last 6 months of employment. To qualify for 400 days of unemployment benefits you need to have worked (received salary from your employer) for a minimum of 18 months in the last 2 years. Your sick leave before or after (!) the termination of contract does nothing to change this requirement.

http://www.treffpunkt-arbeit.ch/arbeitslos/FAQ/
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Old 17.07.2015, 12:39
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

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they calculate the 70(80)% of the average for these last 6 months of employment.
http://www.treffpunkt-arbeit.ch/arbeitslos/FAQ/
"Die Höhe der Arbeitslosenentschädigung hängt grundsätzlich vom AHV-pflichtigen Lohn ab, den Sie durchschnittlich in den letzten 6 oder – falls vorteilhafter – in den letzten 12 Monaten vor Ihrer Arbeitslosigkeit erzielt haben"

and over the last 12 months if it is financially beneficial to the unemployed individual.
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Old 17.07.2015, 17:19
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

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Hello, I have been on a sick leave for 6 months and employer has decided to terminate my employment contract.

I now need to apply for RAV / Chomage / Unemployment and I guess that I will know from them the answer to my question very soon, but does anyone happen to know if the last 6 months of Sick Leave Pay will be taken into account for the calculation of average earnings over the last 12/24 months?

Before sick leave I was employed for 6 years but I am not sure if my salary (or sick leave pay) during my sick was treated as normal salary subject to AHV / AVS / Social security.

Any ideas? Thanks.
It will be the average actual earnings regardless of who picked up the bill in the end.
Your sickness status now and after the end of employment is very relevant to what unemployment benefit will be paid and how many job applications you have to make each month. My situation is complicated due to the employer not having "Tagesgeldversicherung" which normally would pick up the salary after employment ends (for the % that one is "Arbeitsunfähig")
Send me a PM if you wish to compare notes
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Old 17.07.2015, 18:51
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

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It will be the average actual earnings regardless of who picked up the bill in the end.
Your sickness status now and after the end of employment is very relevant to what unemployment benefit will be paid and how many job applications you have to make each month. My situation is complicated due to the employer not having "Tagesgeldversicherung" which normally would pick up the salary after employment ends (for the % that one is "Arbeitsunfähig")
Send me a PM if you wish to compare notes
That's interesting. Who 'picks up' the salary in your case? I haven't come across that before. It's most unfortunate that there is no Krankentaggeldversicherung!

If I am off sick 100% arbeitsunfähig for the twelve months immediately following the termination of contract under a Krankentaggeld scheme, then automatically any right to unemployment benefit is completely wiped out?
As I see it then, to have any chance of anything at all from unemployment payment office I need to become at least partially arbeitsfähig / fit to work, before the 12 months elapse.

Last edited by plumtree; 17.07.2015 at 19:08. Reason: adding words
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Old 17.07.2015, 19:00
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

Friendly reminder, please include a rough translation of any non-English text with your posts. Google Translate of some of the above:

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"Die Höhe der Arbeitslosenentschädigung hängt grundsätzlich vom AHV-pflichtigen Lohn ab, den Sie durchschnittlich in den letzten 6 oder – falls vorteilhafter – in den letzten 12 Monaten vor Ihrer Arbeitslosigkeit erzielt haben"
The amount of unemployment benefit depends fundamentally on the AHV wages they average over the last 6 or - have achieved in the last 12 months prior to unemployment - if advantageous

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..."Tagesgeldversicherung"... "Arbeitsunfähig"...
Daily benefits insurance...unfit for work

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... Krankentaggeldversicherung... Krankentaggeld scheme...arbeitsfähig
sick pay insurance...sickness benefit scheme, able to work
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Old 18.07.2015, 16:45
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

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That's interesting. Who 'picks up' the salary in your case? I haven't come across that before. It's most unfortunate that there is no Krankentaggeldversicherung!

If I am off sick 100% arbeitsunfähig for the twelve months immediately following the termination of contract under a Krankentaggeld scheme, then automatically any right to unemployment benefit is completely wiped out?
As I see it then, to have any chance of anything at all from unemployment payment office I need to become at least partially arbeitsfähig / fit to work, before the 12 months elapse.
Being in the middle of this, I am just as confused as everybody else. The rules are not very transparent, may depend on nationality/residency status and each employer has slightly different arrangements. I had an aversion from taking any Swiss unemployment/benefits until I understood that as a salaried worker one pays into an insurance scheme against unemployment. It is not seen as being on "social benefit". Sickness benefits confuse the issue considerably, especially as Swiss people may use them as a counterbalance to the employer friendly labour laws.
What one's best strategy financially/psychologically may be is very individual -I rely on my Swiss doctor for advice as health is number 1.
As a direct answer to your question. You need to be fit for (to some %) and actively looking for work to get unemployment benefit that would run for a max of two years. There is provision for people in the contradictory position of applying at the same time for a disability pension (IV) and unemployment benefit. Since I have no "Tagesgeld" provision (my employer paid out my salary to the end of my contract even though I was sick), this is not relevant for me.

Last edited by KiwiSteve; 18.07.2015 at 17:16. Reason: Reply not complete
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Old 19.07.2015, 09:46
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

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The rules are not very transparent, may depend on nationality/residency status and each employer has slightly different arrangements.
That every employer has different arrangements is true, however I would hope and believe that residence and nationality for these issues do not have any bearing. Being on a C-permit at the time, it didn't worry me.
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I had an aversion from taking any Swiss unemployment/benefits until I understood that as a salaried worker one pays into an insurance scheme against unemployment. It is not seen as being on "social benefit". Sickness benefits confuse the issue considerably, especially as Swiss people may use them as a counterbalance to the employer friendly labour laws.
What one's best strategy financially/psychologically may be is very individual -I rely on my Swiss doctor for advice as health is number 1.
I was also in a situation which could have become more complex, we found out that the company wanted to terminate contracts (and had begun actively to do so) of all employees who were off sick, at the same time I was due to go back to work 30% and remain off sick for the remaining 70%, however my doctor and I decided together that it would be easier, upon receiving the news, to declare a 100% inability which would accompany me during the entire termination period and beyond. A Krankentaggeldversicherung then took over after termination and paid out the salary for a further 6 months, making 12 months on 100% in all. In the second year this went down to 80%. By that time unemployment benefit was then (as I see now), no longer an option.

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As a direct answer to your question. You need to be fit for (to some %) and actively looking for work to get unemployment benefit that would run for a max of two years. There is provision for people in the contradictory position of applying at the same time for a disability pension (IV) and unemployment benefit. Since I have no "Tagesgeld" provision (my employer paid out my salary to the end of my contract even though I was sick), this is not relevant for me.
What happened after contract termination though? You went into unemployment and received those benefits despite being ill?

Regarding IV. Normally if an employee is off sick, it is the employer who starts off the incapacity benefit process and requests an early intervention/evaluation from the IV. I remember this is what happened my case, and already after 5 months of illness. I was asked to fill in a long series of forms. If you become ill whilst employed, that employer is responsible for you even after termination of contract.

I don't see how one can be considered for IV at the same time as being fit/partially fit to work, actively seeking work and in receipt of unemployment benefits though insofar as the idea of the employer applying for an IV-Rente for their employee is that either the employee gets better and goes onto unemployment, or they start working again within 2 years, or ultimately they don't get better or are granted an IV-Rente, at which stage the employer has to pay out permanently, or for as long as the former employee is sick.
Maybe the two (unemployment benefit and IV-Rente) can be combined %-wise at a certain point/to some extent.
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Old 19.07.2015, 13:42
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

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That every employer has different arrangements is true, however I would hope and believe that residence and nationality for these issues do not have any bearing. Being on a C-permit at the time, it didn't worry me.
The rules themselves should not discriminate
I was also in a situation which could have become more complex, we found out that the company wanted to terminate contracts (and had begun actively to do so) of all employees who were off sick, at the same time I was due to go back to work 30% and remain off sick for the remaining 70%, however my doctor and I decided together that it would be easier, upon receiving the news, to declare a 100% inability which would accompany me during the entire termination period and beyond. A Krankentaggeldversicherung then took over after termination and paid out the salary for a further 6 months, making 12 months on 100% in all. In the second year this went down to 80%. By that time unemployment benefit was then (as I see now), no longer an option.

Sorry to hear this, but it does not suprise me - I would not expect sickness/unemployment benefits to last longer than 2 years after contract termination, but it may be possible.

What happened after contract termination though? You went into unemployment and received those benefits despite being ill?
Regarding IV. Normally if an employee is off sick, it is the employer who starts off the incapacity benefit process and requests an early intervention/evaluation from the IV. I remember this is what happened my case, and already after 5 months of illness. I was asked to fill in a long series of forms. If you become ill whilst employed, that employer is responsible for you even after termination of contract.

This is where it gets excessively complicated and my employers lack of a "Tagesgeldversicherung" has made things worse. Their responsibility after termination is a grey area in my case. It is a matter of who picks up the bill and RAV are obviously not impressed by the employer. The employer has until now had nothing to do with the IV process. My case is on-going so...

I don't see how one can be considered for IV at the same time as being fit/partially fit to work, actively seeking work and in receipt of unemployment benefits though insofar as the idea of the employer applying for an IV-Rente for their employee is that either the employee gets better and goes onto unemployment, or they start working again within 2 years, or ultimately they don't get better or are granted an IV-Rente, at which stage the employer has to pay out permanently, or for as long as the former employee is sick.
Maybe the two (unemployment benefit and IV-Rente) can be combined %-wise at a certain point/to some extent.
This is the contradictory situation that I referred to earlier. There is big political pressure to cut down the number of IV claimants -one way to do this is to make the IV process long and complicated, which then forces people into this situation. Fortunately I could fill in a form from RAV to cover this.
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Old 19.07.2015, 23:29
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

Hello, thanks everyone for their input.

Though I must admit that I am still totally unclear on the main question. Whether my pay while being sick for 6 months will or will not be considered as my income for the 6/12 months calculation for the unemployment benefits.

Is it really that there is no answer in the Law?

May be someone had this situation before? Long-term sick, contract terminated after return to work. Whether Unemployment entitlement was full or partial?

Thanks.
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Old 20.07.2015, 09:17
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

If you want to be sure you should ask RAV.

One precondition to be entitled to payments by RAV is, you need to be "vermittlungsfähig" (employable?), essentially be able to start work reasonably soon. That's probably not (fully) the case if you're still on 40% leave (it's not clear from your posts if that's still the case).

Otherwise, it would seem reasonable and fair that your pay based on 60% should be "upgraded" to 100% as you were working 100% before and are looking for a 100% job (you are, aren't you?). But that's just my personal opinion.

What's more, and generally speaking, I think you're expected to be looking for work already, but if you're still partially ill, so to say, that may not apply. I think you want to ask your RAV representative asap.
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Old 20.07.2015, 09:24
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

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If you want to be sure you should ask RAV.

One precondition to be entitled to payments by RAV is, you need to be "vermittlungsfähig" (employable?), essentially be able to start work reasonably soon. That's probably not (fully) the case if you're still on 40% leave (it's not clear from your posts if that's still the case).

Otherwise, it would seem reasonable and fair that your pay based on 60% should be "upgraded" to 100% as you were working 100% before and are looking for a 100% job (you are, aren't you?). But that's just my personal opinion.

What's more, and generally speaking, I think you're expected to be looking for work already, but if you're still partially ill, so to say, that may not apply. I think you want to ask your RAV representative asap.
Is unemployment insurance deducted from sick pay? If it is then everything will be fine, if not.......
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Old 20.07.2015, 11:44
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

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Is unemployment insurance deducted from sick pay? If it is then everything will be fine, if not.......
Nah, payments for leave on illness, though social insurance and similar need not be deducted from, count towards unmployment insurance (§13 Arbeitslosenversicherungsgesetz). §40b of the "Verordnung über die Arbeitslosenversicherung" (executive order on unemployment insurance) says that remaining capacity to work be "calculated upwards" for 100%. So if you can only work 50% due to illness (doctors prescription) and get only paid 50%, that salary essentially counts double.

So I would expect that OPs inability to work is appropriately considered. But again, that's just my opinion - ask RAV.

BTW, contrary to what's been said in previous posts, one must have worked 12 months, not 18 months, during the 24 months preceeding RAV payment start. See statements in all links in this thread.
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Old 20.07.2015, 13:23
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

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Hello, thanks everyone for their input.

Though I must admit that I am still totally unclear on the main question. Whether my pay while being sick for 6 months will or will not be considered as my income for the 6/12 months calculation for the unemployment benefits.

Is it really that there is no answer in the Law?

May be someone had this situation before? Long-term sick, contract terminated after return to work. Whether Unemployment entitlement was full or partial?

Thanks.
This is basically my situation
I agree with the others that what RAV thinks or says is the most important -it is best to have them on your side. My understanding is that sick pay (mine was direct from the employer and not via an insurance company)counts as normal income for the purposes of calculating the level of unemployment benefit - I will get a very nasty surprise in a month's time if this is not the case
My (each case is different! TIS) entitlement should be "full (i.e. 80% average income"); what has not been determined is the stand down time which depends on so many factors: reasons for the termination, efforts to find work etc. Since the stand down time eats into the max 2 years, a long stand down time is effectively a reduction in entitlement
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Old 21.07.2015, 08:40
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Re: Unemployment after sick leave

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Is unemployment insurance deducted from sick pay? If it is then everything will be fine, if not.......
For as long as you are still an employee of the company, albeit off sick 100%, then unemployment insurance deductions are still made.
This was what happened in my case.

Once the Krankentaggeldversicherung however, took over payment of the salary (in the form of sick pay insurance), no further deductions for anything like that were made.
I was though invoiced about one year later for the entire time under the insurance company monthly payments, by the authorities, for simply pension contributions.

As I now understand it, having been then off sick for more than 12/18 months, I would have been no longer entitled to unemployment benefit, for the precise reason that during that period no unemployment insurance contributions were paid because they weren't due.

Last edited by plumtree; 21.07.2015 at 08:41. Reason: minor edit
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