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  #21  
Old 15.07.2015, 23:50
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Re: Can they fire me?

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Well, my performance has been extremely good so far (bonuses, evaluations, etc), so I hope that if this firing for just cause will not happen - then they would only send we a written warning. That's why I wonder whether in September will be legally too late to fire me for a just cause.
Forget about just cause. You can be let go in Switzerland without any reason.

If you have proof that your absence for this training/course was approved by your supervisor, go to HR.
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  #22  
Old 15.07.2015, 23:52
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Re: Can they fire me?

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Also... what is the point of this meeting? They might have sent me an A/R dismissal letter if they decided to fire me.

Thank you again guys, probably I will talk to an (English speaking) lawyer
Why not first find out what is all behind this meeting and safe the cost of a lawyer??????????
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Old 15.07.2015, 23:58
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Re: Can they fire me?

i don't know the kind of work you do but even if your colleagues would not have noticed your superVISOR would have (or should have), no? I would say they will ask her if she knew, and then if she gave approval, and then the castle crumbles anyway.
I don't get why you wanna risk just to cover for the boss, can she fire you afterwards?
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Old 15.07.2015, 23:58
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Re: Can they fire me?

This is bloody ridiculous

Your leave was approved, and you have proof, so use it.

Reading between the lines, your Boss messed up and is asking you to cover for them?? Well have a think about who's job is more important to you, yours or your Bosses. Also, not just the job but your reputation, if you get a bad reference, then what?

If you have the evidence to help yourself, but choose not to use it, then well
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Old 16.07.2015, 00:16
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Re: Can they fire me?

Did you attend the course during this two months? Did you submit the course certificate to further support your side of the story? BTW- who paid for the course? Is there an expense approval in this tale as well?
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Old 16.07.2015, 00:21
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Re: Can they fire me?

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Did you attend the course during this two months? Did you submit the course certificate to further support your side of the story? BTW- who paid for the course? Is there an expense approval in this tale as well?
Yes, that's exactly what I submitted. I paid for the course in part myself (and in part I got a grant). No expense approval stories, since the company is not involved. I guess the entire point is that I should have got HR approval, and because my boss was supposed / volunteered to take care of it I did not.
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Old 16.07.2015, 00:52
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Re: Can they fire me?

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i don't think you can fire someone without notice 9 months after the event happened.
Why not?

From the HR perspective, I imagine that they view the OP and his boss to have conspired to defraud the company. They could both end up losing their jobs and potentially have legal action taken against them.

Last edited by Phil_MCR; 16.07.2015 at 01:34.
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Old 16.07.2015, 01:20
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Re: Can they fire me?

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Yes, that's exactly what I submitted. I paid for the course in part myself (and in part I got a grant). No expense approval stories, since the company is not involved. I guess the entire point is that I should have got HR approval, and because my boss was supposed / volunteered to take care of it I did not.
Were you aware before you left that HR was not informed? Were you a little surprised there was nothing to sign before leaving or that your salary would be put on hold during your sabbatical? That is, I assume you were not supposed to be paid but were.

I can understand that HR may want to understand both your side and your bosses side because it sounds like she forgot to submit this to HR and you conveniently neglected to remind her and reaped the rewards to be paid your salary renumeration with no work for it.

If this is the case, you should be prepared to be let go.
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  #29  
Old 16.07.2015, 02:47
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Were you aware before you left that HR was not informed? Were you a little surprised there was nothing to sign before leaving or that your salary would be put on hold during your sabbatical? That is, I assume you were not supposed to be paid but were.

I can understand that HR may want to understand both your side and your bosses side because it sounds like she forgot to submit this to HR and you conveniently neglected to remind her and reaped the rewards to be paid your salary renumeration with no work for it.

If this is the case, you should be prepared to be let go.
No, no surprises, I am neither the first not the last who takes a course like this in my company. Nothing to reap or gain (actually, the course was in another city, so I had to pay double rent). Simply, I did not make sure my boss took care of it. But I see your point, you see this as an investigation.

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Why not?

From the HR perspective, I imagine that they view the OP and his boss to have conspired to defraud the company. They could both end up losing their jobs and potentially have legal action taken against them.
I found this:

La résiliation immédiate doit avoir lieu aussi rapidement que possible après connaissance du juste motif (le plus souvent dans les 2 à 3 jours qui suivent). La charge de la preuve incombe à la partie qui invoque le juste motif.

which seem to indicate that, in any case, they should have done it as soon as I submitted the documentation.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 16.07.2015 at 16:16. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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  #30  
Old 16.07.2015, 07:56
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Re: Can they fire me?

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Again, talk to HR directly and do not wait till September.

From my experience, if they get Legal on board at a meeting like this, it is serious.

Exactly. An ordinary employee having to speak to 'Legal' is highly unusual.

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It's not mobbing or intimidation.
I think it is mobbing. No employee should have to face 'Legal' or attend such a meeting for someone else's mistake and when he has done nothing wrong.

Proposing even such a meeting is intimidating.

Intimidation is the mere start of mobbing.

Mobbing is illegal and ruins lives.
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The issue absolutely has to be nipped in the bud.

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Why not first find out what is all behind this meeting and safe the cost of a lawyer??????????
Again, exactly. No lawyer is needed. You may want to speak to a trade union though, even if you are not a member they can talk/advise.

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I found this:

La résiliation immédiate doit avoir lieu aussi rapidement que possible après connaissance du juste motif (le plus souvent dans les 2 à 3 jours qui suivent). La charge de la preuve incombe à la partie qui invoque le juste motif.

which seem to indicate that, in any case, they should have done it as soon as I submitted the documentation.
It is highly unlikely there will be an immediate firing here, without notice.
Your quote in French only concerns immediate firing, which is not what this is about. If a termination of contract is going to happen, at that meeting, or by letter, there will be a notice period, which the company should respect.

Last edited by plumtree; 16.07.2015 at 08:22. Reason: adding
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  #31  
Old 16.07.2015, 08:24
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Re: Can they fire me?

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No, no surprises, I am neither the first not the last who takes a course like this in my company. Nothing to reap or gain (actually, the course was in another city, so I had to pay double rent). Simply, I did not make sure my boss took care of it. But I see your point, you see this as an investigation.
Thanks for the clarification, and yes I do see it as an investigation. It doesn't really matter how I see it or anyone else on the board.

You need clarification from your boss and HR what this is about. Take the guess work out of it and be proactive to state your case.

Sounds like it was a mis-understanding then.
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  #32  
Old 16.07.2015, 08:29
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Re: Can they fire me?

What is your notice period?
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  #33  
Old 16.07.2015, 09:14
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Re: Can they fire me?

I still think something is very strange here. It would be very unusual, to the point of astonishing, for HR to institute action like this without contacting the employee's supervisor first, even if it is only to notify them about what they plan to do.


If the supervisor did not immediately clarify the situation at that point, either he/she is throwing you under the bus for some reason or he/she is in deep trouble as well and wants to have some company. In either case, I would make sure HR received at once a copy of the supervisor's approval with the comment that they would contact HR. It was not clear from your note whether you actually sent this or if you just sent information about the course and the certificate.
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  #34  
Old 16.07.2015, 09:18
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Re: Can they fire me?

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Exactly. An ordinary employee having to speak to 'Legal' is highly unusual.

I think it is mobbing. No employee should have to face 'Legal' or attend such a meeting for someone else's mistake and when he has done nothing wrong.

Proposing even such a meeting is intimidating.

Intimidation is the mere start of mobbing.
I disagree. You keep using the term mobbing like some super shield which covers all situations that an employee might not like, but to me, it makes perfect sense that this is happening.

This whole thing sounds fishy. An employee is given two months off and yet it is a mystery to the rest of the company. Even an honest mistake would have been accepted, possibly resulting in a disciplinary letter and perhaps wage garnishment. As others say, this sounds to me like an investigation and from the company's perspective, why wouldn't they?
They have the OP, whom for whatever reason, comes across as evasive and unwilling to decisively state his case and put the blame on his boss. Why? Is there some form of collusion going on?
They have the boss, who for whatever reason, won't stand up and admit her fault( per the details of the story). Again, is this some type of collusion? Or it could be she is the target of the investigation, legal is involved because there is a history of such behavior, and the company just needs to know how wide to swing the axe. Not going to the meeting gives the wrong signal in this case.
Each appears to be pointing the finger at each other and the company needs to get to the bottom of it.
It's not mobbing,FFS. It's somebody at this company actually doing their job.
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  #35  
Old 16.07.2015, 09:20
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Re: Can they fire me?

Doesnt the company have a leave approval system where you apply for it, it is approved by your manager, and visible to HR?
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  #36  
Old 16.07.2015, 16:18
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Re: Can they fire me?

Do you have documentary evidence that your supervisor approved this course and the leave of absence? Most larger companies I have worked for have some system for requesting and approving leave.

Where I work it's a case of notifying superiors / colleagues with an invitation in Outlook. If nobody objects the leave is entered into an online time tracking tool.

And for an extended leave, it's the done thing to do some kind if handover to close colleagues in case they have to handle something normally in your remit during your time away.

I can't help thinking you're not giving us the whole story here.

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  #37  
Old 16.07.2015, 16:40
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Re: Can they fire me?

Why is that "legal" meeting only scheduled in September? What is your boss saying actually? Why would your company pay you for those two months absence? Is it a work related course? If yes, why would you pay for the course yourself? Why didn't your colleagues know you where gone? Are you sitting alone in a cubicle on a separate floor in like a 50-story building?

Is it just me or does it feel like half the story is missing here?
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  #38  
Old 16.07.2015, 17:45
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Re: Can they fire me?

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Hello everybody,
I am new to the forum and I hope I am not breaking any rule here. I looked at similar threads, but it seems my case is unusual.

I am working in a large company in Geneva, and at the end of last year I took a paid leave for 2 months to attend a course. I got my leave approved by my direct boss. However, she forgot to formally notify the central HR.

Two months ago I received a communication by the central HR that they were informed of this unauthorized leave from the workplace. I sent the documentation they required to fix it, but two weeks ago the HR manager told me the thing cannot be solved only with what they received because this is a serious incident, and he scheduled a meeting for September with me and a member of the legal office.

I would probably win this case in a court (I can prove I asked for authorization to my boss), but I like my job, my boss made a horrible mistake but probably in good faith, and I would like if possible to avoid to go to court. Can they still fire me after all this time for just cause, or at most I will get a warning? What can the consequences be? Can they "force" me to resign?

Thanks!
Something is missing from your story.... if you sent the copy of the approval to HR and they still have an issue with you then something is wrong or you don't have the full details and why wait for 2 mo ths for a meeting... very odd.
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  #39  
Old 16.07.2015, 17:52
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Re: Can they fire me?

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Also... what is the point of this meeting? They might have sent me an A/R dismissal letter if they decided to fire me.

Thank you again guys, probably I will talk to an (English speaking) lawyer
Go with a lawyer or mention it, almost certain they will get rid of you, the Swiss are not confrontational.

The real question here is why is your boss not backing you if they agreed in writing to your paid leave (2 months is a long time....)

Sounds like your boss overstepped and is not going to leave you out to dry, otherwise they need to man up and say it was approved. End of story.
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  #40  
Old 16.07.2015, 20:16
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Re: Can they fire me?

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Something is missing from your story.... if you sent the copy of the approval to HR and they still have an issue with you then something is wrong or you don't have the full details and why wait for 2 mo ths for a meeting... very odd.
...unless they're actually gunning for the boss?

But I agree, the only way you'll know for sure is talk to HR. What's so difficult about "it wasn't my fault, guv"?
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