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Old 19.08.2015, 08:08
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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The point about placebos is that they work because you don't know they are placebos. If you go to a homeopath can you be sure that you won't get any meds with active ingredients....


Not true. Trials show that even when known that placebos are in place there is still a similar percentage of cures. Once again, there are now placebo knee operations. The knee patienst after being operated on - a small cut is made - and the patient's knee problem has gone. See Google.
I once had a series of terrible dizziness. All doctors were to no avail. In desperation I visited a doctor who practised homeopathy and received little white pills. I was cured.
Everything is belief.
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Old 19.08.2015, 08:31
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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Not true. Trials show that even when known that placebos are in place there is still a similar percentage of cures. Once again, there are now placebo knee operations. The knee patienst after being operated on - a small cut is made - and the patient's knee problem has gone. See Google.
I once had a series of terrible dizziness. All doctors were to no avail. In desperation I visited a doctor who practised homeopathy and received little white pills. I was cured.
Everything is belief.
Woah....

I am pretty sure if you give those white little pill or do a small cut "surgery like" on a cancer patient, it won't heal it no matter how hard they believe it.
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  #43  
Old 19.08.2015, 09:05
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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The point about placebos is that they work because you don't know they are placebos. If you go to a homeopath can you be sure that you won't get any meds with active ingredients....
Actually, there is evidence that the placebo effect still can work when you know it's a placebo. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0015591

Nowt as queer as folk.
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  #44  
Old 19.08.2015, 10:24
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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Woah....

I am pretty sure if you give those white little pill or do a small cut "surgery like" on a cancer patient, it won't heal it no matter how hard they believe it.
That's why you go to see a doctor first rather than buying your homeopathic medicine from an astrologer or tantra massagist. If it really is cancer the doctor won't give you homeopathy, or at least not on its own. But if its some imaginary crap then he may give you an imaginary cure and you won't be any the wiser.

That's why I keep on saying homeopathic GP = OK
Wooly new age homeopathist without adequate medical training = not OK
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  #45  
Old 19.08.2015, 11:28
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

So basically if the GP diagnoses you as a Hypochonder, then you get imaginary medicine for imaginary illnesses.
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Old 19.08.2015, 11:34
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

Hypocratic oath - first do no harm.

General guidance - drink more water.

= homeopathic medicine
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Old 19.08.2015, 11:36
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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Old 19.08.2015, 11:42
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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So basically if the GP diagnoses you as a Hypochonder, then you get imaginary medicine for imaginary illnesses.
I can see why a doctor could be for selling homeopathic stuff as well, it's an opportunity to upsell a product.

After all, if a doctor gives you a prescription, or there's nothing really that wrong with you, they'll only make money on the consultation, but if they kept a wide stock of Homeopathic "Remedies" on hand, that's pure profit to be made.

The patient is encouraged to come back for minor stuff, believing they're being treated by the homeopathic stuff, but the doctor can still cover their ass should the patient actually get something serious.
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Old 19.08.2015, 15:51
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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Not true. Trials show that even when known that placebos are in place there is still a similar percentage of cures. Once again, there are now placebo knee operations. The knee patienst after being operated on - a small cut is made - and the patient's knee problem has gone. See Google.
I once had a series of terrible dizziness. All doctors were to no avail. In desperation I visited a doctor who practised homeopathy and received little white pills. I was cured.
Everything is belief.
I've also heard countless anecdotal accounts of recovery through prayer. In fact, I'm sure more people believe prayer will cure a busted knee than homeopathy.

The problem with placebos is definitely clear though. Whether your consultant is a doctor or homeopath, you will trust their opinion and will be inclined to believe what they tell you is true. This is part of the placebo effect. The difference is, homeopaths will swear to their product as being amazing. I have had my own issues with dizziness. My specialist told me that dizziness not accompanied with syncope or infection was essentially impossible to diagnose. He flat out told me that he could give me some pills but they probably wouldn't work. They kinda did, but I think it was mostly time or the change in some unknown environmental variable that fixed it. Obviously the placebo effect would have been stronger with the homeopathy, and maybe even more effective overall, but I'm not in the practice of deluding myself.
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Old 19.08.2015, 20:43
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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The point about placebos is that they work because you don't know they are placebos. If you go to a homeopath can you be sure that you won't get any meds with active ingredients....
Actually, this is quite untrue. Placebos are known to work even in patients that know they're getting a placebo.

... And since modern medicine is so great with modern pharmaceuticals that tend to work as well as placebos, why not? I just would never see one myself.
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  #51  
Old 20.08.2015, 09:13
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

And sometimes, fortunately, people just get better. Even when they have serious conditions and in the absence of any treatment. As one example-


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_remission


Spontaneous remission is just one of several things that make treatment efficacy a difficult thing to judge even in clinical trials and encourages people to associate "cures" with diets, treatments or activities that may or may not be causal.
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Old 20.08.2015, 09:32
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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Not true. Trials show that even when known that placebos are in place there is still a similar percentage of cures. Once again, there are now placebo knee operations. The knee patienst after being operated on - a small cut is made - and the patient's knee problem has gone. See Google.
Right.

I think the problem with placebo surgery is that it's only going to work for placebo injury, just like homeopathic surgery would work for homeopathic injury.

Seriously though, some physical knee problems, specifically Hyaline cartilage damage, can heal and even regenerate without external assistance, but the process requires certain conditions of some, but limited, joint activity and only partial load-bearing around the injury site. Clearly any surgery is likely to make the patient much more aware of the area and much more likely to look after it, in which case the dummy surgery could act as a control mechanism, rather than just a placebo effect generator.

I'm quite genned up on knees at the moment, even more than normal, which is quite a lot anyway, as I'm sitting here at home ten days after triple knee surgery. Hamstring tendon ->ACL replacement, Tibial microfracture (to stimulate cartilage regeneration) and high-tib varus osteotomy to relieve some of the injury-inducing pressure.
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Old 20.08.2015, 10:08
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

Homeopathy is up there with the "science" of cosmetics and hair products. Fibrology is one of my favourites.

And don't get me started on moisturisers which work best at night.
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Old 20.08.2015, 10:14
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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Spontaneous remission is just one of several things that make treatment efficacy a difficult thing to judge even in clinical trials
Not really. Sample sizes and statistical methods are chosen to be able to distinguish effects due to the treatment (or placebo, even) from 'random' events. That's why we do so much analysis of the data, to be able to show to the satisfaction of ourselves, the scientific and medical community, the regulatory bodies and prescribing authorities that the probability of the observed results occurring by chance is vanishingly small.
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Old 20.08.2015, 10:40
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

On rare occasion, homeopaths (Heilpraktiker) develop products that are worthwhile, if they don't kill you first. The new MS drug Tecfidera came about partly because of a homeopath, apparently located somewhere deep in Canton Aargau about 30 years ago. This is the story of the MS drug Tecfidera's discovery:

"About 30 years ago a psoriasis patient requested that the owner of the Muri "Kloster" pharmacy analyse a white powder, that he had obtained from a homeopath. This powder showed effectiveness against psoriasis but also caused strong side-effects. Strebel (pharmacy owner) analysed the powder with colleagues at the ETH Zurich and determined that it contained 23 different substances, some of which were highly toxic. And he came to the conclusion, along with other specialists, that a derivative of fumaric acid (in this concoction) showed possibilities as an effective agent."

http://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/aargau...toff-126341751

Homeopathy, making the world a better place!
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Old 20.08.2015, 10:56
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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....Sample sizes and statistical methods are chosen to be able to distinguish effects due to the treatment (or placebo, even) from 'random' events. That's why we do so much analysis of the data, to be able to show to the satisfaction of ourselves, the scientific and medical community, the regulatory bodies and prescribing authorities that the probability of the observed results occurring by chance is vanishingly small.
I certainly agree that making this possibility "vanishingly small" is the goal of clinical trials and the outcome that is desired. I hope you would agree that trials do sometimes fail to deliver the study goal (and by that I don't mean a failure as "the drug didn't work" but a failure as " we still don't know if it did or not"). There are many factors that can cause a trial to fail, and if the design is compromised or lacking, then it may not be as robust as desired. If we specify well designed and executed clinical trials, then I am in complete agreement with your point.
https://clinicaltrialist.wordpress.c...l-trials-fail/


However, perhaps I should have avoided the clinical trial case and been clearer in stating that when an individual can get better without any treatment, then they certainly can have the perception that it is because of some factor that can't logically be linked to that improvement.


Correlation is not causality....but we like to have causes for what happens so we are sometimes eager to accept correlations as the cause.
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Old 20.08.2015, 11:00
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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This is the story of the MS drug Tecfidera's discovery:

"About 30 years ago a psoriasis patient requested that the owner of the Muri "Kloster" pharmacy analyse a white powder, that he had obtained from a homeopath.
I'll stop reading there. The person who supplied this white powder may (or may not) have been a homeopath. So what? It's about as relevant as whether the people who isolated Aspirin or Penicillin believed in faith healing.
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Old 20.08.2015, 11:04
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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However, perhaps I should have avoided the clinical trial case and been clearer in stating that when an individual can get better without any treatment, then they certainly can have the perception that it is because of some factor that can't logically be linked to that improvement.
Quite so. Even a hospital doctor last week was suggesting that the reason I was developing a cold (I didn't, in the end) was due to the fan I'd had trained on me day and night for the previous two days. He cited his own experiences of going 'home' to Spain where they were using A/C a lot and then developing a cold on his return as a justification for his view. Idiot.

I called him out on that too
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Old 20.08.2015, 11:39
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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Quite so. Even a hospital doctor last week was suggesting that the reason I was developing a cold (I didn't, in the end) was due to the fan I'd had trained on me day and night for the previous two days. ......

I called him out on that too


Good for you! I would have done the same. Although it is risky if he is still giving injections, etc. You never know how big a needle he will choose to use!
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Old 20.08.2015, 11:39
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Re: Homeopath looking for job

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Quite so. Even a hospital doctor last week was suggesting that the reason I was developing a cold (I didn't, in the end) was due to the fan I'd had trained on me day and night for the previous two days. He cited his own experiences of going 'home' to Spain where they were using A/C a lot and then developing a cold on his return as a justification for his view. Idiot.
Our local Badi still has a large notice up stating that one shouldn't swim for two hours after eating.
I've heard a lot of people say the same thing at the badi too.

I'm not sure how the lake water permeates the skin, flesh, and reaches the stomach and causes some dangerous effect.

Luckily for me, I always shower before breakfast.

Perhaps a Swiss person on here could enlighten me?
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