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  #21  
Old 13.10.2015, 12:19
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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Thanks again for your replies, much appreciated. Having taken a quick look at the average exchange rate over the past 20 years, which has roughly been 2:1, I can see where the 2x rule of thumb has come from.
What do you pay a cleaner in the UK £7-10 an hour, here you will be looking at 25-30 CHF.

Housing in London is significantly more expensive than Zurich, assuming your commute to work is under 40 minutes. Most Swiss commute time is significantly under 40 minutes, when I worked in Zurich it never exceeded 5 minutes.

Prices & Salaries in CH have changed very little in 30 years, less than 1% a year. Don't expect big pay rises.

The only reason I could see to move to Switzerland for a similar salary was to avoid paying CGT on an existing investment. Switzerland has no CGT on investments & if you leave the UK for 5 tax years you won't have a UK liability.
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I guess 2x is not a bad rule of thumb for the EF standard 120k salary. But it may not apply for salaries a standard deviation away. remember also that in 2008, just translating your salary would have been a 2x change.

Then:

170/2 = 85

Now:

170/1.5 = 113

Also, at higher salaries, the tax savings also start to add up.

also, higher salaries up to a point are pretty much useless since there's nothing for you to spend your money on until you get to stupid levels of money.

tl;dr: the higher your salary, the lower the multiple required (offset by lower taxes).
I arrived in 1994 when the rate was 1.8 CHF to £1, by 2000 it was 2.6 CHF to £1, people earned more in London than Zurich.

170/2.6 =65
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  #22  
Old 13.10.2015, 13:35
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

Thanks for your reply Fatmanfilms, much appreciated.

My feeling is that while day-to-day expenses in Zurich (food, clothing, socialising, etc.) will be higher than they are in London I will make significant savings in Switzerland by not having to pay for private schools. My wife and I would like to have 3 kids which, at £10k a year for school fees in London, would equate to £30k in after-tax income.

On my current salary of £85k I cannot afford private school fees and depend on my wife's modest salary (she-works part time) and my bonus which in a good year can cover 2-3 years' worth of fees but in a bad year could be nothing.

Yes, a cleaner in London is about £10/hour these days but luckily we clean our apartment ourselves!
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Old 13.10.2015, 13:43
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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Thanks for your reply Fatmanfilms, much appreciated.

My feeling is that while day-to-day expenses in Zurich (food, clothing, socialising, etc.) will be higher than they are in London I will make significant savings in Switzerland by not having to pay for private schools. My wife and I would like to have 3 kids which, at £10k a year for school fees in London, would equate to £30k in after-tax income.

On my current salary of £85k I cannot afford private school fees and depend on my wife's modest salary (she-works part time) and my bonus which in a good year can cover 2-3 years' worth of fees but in a bad year could be nothing.

Yes, a cleaner in London is about £10/hour these days but luckily we clean our apartment ourselves!
You will have a better standard of living in CH, however you or more likely your wife will be bored out of her mind, so think carefully.
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Old 13.10.2015, 15:06
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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You will have a better standard of living in CH, however you or more likely your wife will be bored out of her mind, so think carefully.
Thanks again. Just to point out, neither my wife nor I are British so we have no emotional attachment to London or the UK. I grew up in Canada and love the outdoors and am not a big city person. My wife is Czech. I think it will take time for my wife to settle in but we plan on having a second child next year anyway so even if we were in London she would be at home for most of the year on maternity leave.
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Old 13.10.2015, 17:24
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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The only reason I could see to move to Switzerland for a similar salary was to avoid paying CGT on an existing investment. Switzerland has no CGT on investments & if you leave the UK for 5 tax years you won't have a UK liability.
Excuse me, isn't the tax difference between London and Zürich another good reason??

Add to that the "cheaper" housing as you said, and then you have a good deal, no?
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  #26  
Old 13.10.2015, 21:19
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

Hi Brian1985,

I have lived in both London and Zurich on a similar salary/bonus to you and in the same industry. But I am single and have no children.

I expect salaries in London to be similar to Zurich. So if I were on 85k GBP, then I would want around 125k CHF.

I think you spend about the same on housing in Zurich to get housing of a similar status to London. By "status", I mean your position in the relative pecking order of what is available. What you pay for a "nice" one bedroom flat in London zone 1/2 is about what you pay for a "nice" one bedroom flat in Zurich old town or Seefeld, for example.

Everything else, other than perhaps utility bills, is much more expensive in Zurich. Groceries, eating out, furniture, household goods, clothes, basic health care etc.

Tax is less, so that somewhat evens things out depending on your shopping habits.

Schools here are apparently decent. No need to go private, as you already seem to know.

So financial issues aside... then its all really about whether you would like the Zurich lifestyle and whether you would have the same career progression and options in Switzerland.
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Old 13.10.2015, 21:31
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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Excuse me, isn't the tax difference between London and Zürich another good reason??

Add to that the "cheaper" housing as you said, and then you have a good deal, no?
It's not worth it for a few k, London is a world class city, Zurich born Swiss believe Zurich is a world class city, it's not it's a big Village in comparison, there is a massive difference, if your young you will hate it, if your old then ZH might be what your looking for,
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Old 13.10.2015, 22:43
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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if you leave the UK for 5 tax years you won't have a UK liability.
Not anymore FMF. Unfortunately.
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  #29  
Old 13.10.2015, 22:55
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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The only reason I could see to move to Switzerland for a similar salary was to avoid paying CGT on an existing investment. Switzerland has no CGT on investments & if you leave the UK for 5 tax years you won't have a UK liability.

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Not anymore FMF. Unfortunately.

UK residents have a liability to CGT for 5 years after leaving CH, it's very important to know this. You selectively quoted as I specifically mentioned CGT. Income tax ends when you leave.
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  #30  
Old 13.10.2015, 23:03
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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My wife and I would like to have 3 kids
I take it that means you have none at present? Child care can be very expensive here, and I know a number of cases where it made more financial sense for one parent to stay home with even one child, let alone two or three, than pay for day care. Even once the kids hit school age the hours can be messed up, making it harder to work. I believe that this is changing now, and somewhere like Zurich you might have more options. But in smaller more rural areas kids will still go home for lunch.

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Tax is less, so that somewhat evens things out depending on your shopping habits.
Although tax may be lower, once you start adding in health insurance for a whole family especially on a single income, it gets you back in the same ball park.
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Old 13.10.2015, 23:20
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

London is much more fun than Zurich on weekends Enough said ...
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Old 13.10.2015, 23:25
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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London is much more fun than Zurich on weekends Enough said ...
Just on weekends?
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Old 13.10.2015, 23:33
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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Just on weekends?
It's open 24/7 (in some places), whereas Zurich's opening hours are Mo-Fri 8:30-12:00, then 14:00-20:00 banking holidays included

I would truly regret coming here ...
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Old 14.10.2015, 10:59
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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It's not worth it for a few k, London is a world class city, Zurich born Swiss believe Zurich is a world class city, it's not it's a big Village in comparison, there is a massive difference, if your young you will hate it, if your old then ZH might be what your looking for,
Ok, but talking only about the financial side, someone who makes 85k pounds a year in London pays 40%, in Zurich with all deductions it's around 25%... Am I wrong?
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Old 14.10.2015, 11:11
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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Ok, but talking only about the financial side, someone who makes 85k pounds a year in London pays 40%, in Zurich with all deductions it's around 25%... Am I wrong?
You're not wrong but you're not quite right...
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Old 14.10.2015, 12:55
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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Thanks for your reply Fatmanfilms, much appreciated.

My feeling is that while day-to-day expenses in Zurich (food, clothing, socialising, etc.) will be higher than they are in London I will make significant savings in Switzerland by not having to pay for private schools. My wife and I would like to have 3 kids which, at £10k a year for school fees in London, would equate to £30k in after-tax income.

On my current salary of £85k I cannot afford private school fees and depend on my wife's modest salary (she-works part time) and my bonus which in a good year can cover 2-3 years' worth of fees but in a bad year could be nothing.

Yes, a cleaner in London is about £10/hour these days but luckily we clean our apartment ourselves!
I think your logic is: Zurich is expensive, therefore I need to get paid more.
But there are a lot of countries, where the living costs are super high and you don't earn as much.

Don't expect to get a lot more just because you live in Zurich. The Swiss wage is not that high like many think. I work in financial industry as well.

But again for a front office senior credit research role you mentioned, you should still get around 125k - 150k. 175k is a bit too high.
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Old 14.10.2015, 12:58
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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Ok, but talking only about the financial side, someone who makes 85k pounds a year in London pays 40%, in Zurich with all deductions it's around 25%... Am I wrong?
In London you would pay in total 33% of 85k as tax and social contributions. The bonus would be taxed at 40% upwards depending on amount.

In Zurich a single person on a similar salary would pay out around 25% but that would also include a decent (7-9%) contribution to company pension. Marriage and kids would decrease that % (assuming wife doesn't work). Also assumes no church tax.

FWIW VP IMO 140k upwards aiming for at least 150k. AD is not the same level as VP. It is equivalent of AVP at CS. VP equivalent at UBS is Director. AVP role I'd expect minimum 110k aiming for closer to 130k. Also worth bearing in mind that an AVP level role is eligible for overtime (either payments or time off in lieu). VP isn't, but does receive a 700 a month tax free T&E allowance separate to salary. That's worth at least an additional 10k a year of gross income.
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Old 14.10.2015, 13:16
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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I think your logic is: Zurich is expensive, therefore I need to get paid more.
But there are a lot of countries, where the living costs are super high and you don't earn as much.

Don't expect to get a lot more just because you live in Zurich. The Swiss wage is not that high like many think. I work in financial industry as well.

But again for a front office senior credit research role you mentioned, you should still get around 125k - 150k. 175k is a bit too high.
To make move to another country, I would expect some benefit in doing so. . Presumably the reason the company is looking to employing foreigners who don't speak the language would imply a shortage of locals. What employed locals earn has no relevance at all

When I came to CH in 1994, I was paid roughly twice of the Swiss employee I replaced, he was sacked.
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Old 14.10.2015, 13:30
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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UK residents have a liability to CGT for 5 years after leaving CH, it's very important to know this. You selectively quoted as I specifically mentioned CGT. Income tax ends when you leave.
I'm referring to people who leave UK to take up residence abroad and UK CGT that might apply.

This year, new UK rules for for non residents have been introduced.

CGT is now due, even if I left blighty more than five years ago. Unfortunately.
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Old 14.10.2015, 13:41
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Re: Front office salaries at UBS/CS?

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I'm referring to people who leave UK to take up residence abroad and UK CGT that might apply.

This year, new UK rules for for non residents have been introduced.

CGT is now due, even if I left blighty more than five years ago. Unfortunately.
I am talking about CGT on investments, to get out of UK CGT you must be away for 5 full tax years. If you return after 4 you have to pay tax on any Capital Gains whilst you were away.

You are talking about CGT on property, CGT is Chargeable on gains since 5 April 2015. Looking at transaction volume & what is happening in London, there is a good chance that you will make a loss from the 5 April going forward. Should this loss if crystallised can be of value if you ever return to the UK.
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