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  #21  
Old 03.11.2015, 07:43
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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When they lived and earned together they haven't paid their "marriage penalty" tax, did they? You, the state has been nice to them :-)

Also, if a benefit receiver marries a well off person, some communities authorities may decide it is time now not just to stop the benefits, but to ask for their repayment as well.
I get the impression this is why a couple of the couples I know are not getting married despite talking about wanting to get married for years.

The marriage "penalty tax" because a "benefit" if one person is unemployed or very underemployed in for example, a start-up.

I never have received social benefits, but was very careful not to accept subsidised health insurance while a student since I read of a few cases where this may have been the cause for denial of a C-permit.
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  #22  
Old 03.11.2015, 08:15
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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WOW. That is ridiculous. So if he moved out into his own place he would get help? I am really finding this hard grasp.
I know a long term couple who live in separate apartments for this reason.

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Possibly the reason why Switzerland is doing better than the UK, where people can live in very expensive houses paid for out of social benefits.

Despite the benefits cuts 574 families are having rent of £70,000 a year paid, frankly I am more than a little shocked & flabbergasted.
Not really. In one case, a guys business went under. As st2lemans said, he had to sell the house before he could get assistance. What was really stupid is that the community then had to re-house in a place where the rent was far higher than the mortgage. So he's accruing social debt at a higher rate and it's costing the tax payer more. He does have a huge house now though. To give the local authorities their due, however, they did try to buy his original house and then re-let it to him.
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  #23  
Old 03.11.2015, 08:55
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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sure about that? As far as I can remember (Kanton Basel) I was told that I would have to declare any earning no matter how small. The assistance would have than had that sum deducted.
Maybe it depends again on the town, however it only makes sense to deduct something for repayment from the new income, if that new income is actually large enough to allow for a deduction, otherwise the individual is back where he/she started! Yes they should declare all earnings, but small amounts of income won't be subject to immediate repayment!
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  #24  
Old 03.11.2015, 09:02
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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sure about that? As far as I can remember (Kanton Basel) I was told that I would have to declare any earning no matter how small. The assistance would have than had that sum deducted.
These are different things - you have to declare any earnings, which get deducted from the payments you receive while you are still on support.

Once you earn enough you may have to pay back the debt, but only at a point where you can afford it - they want to encourage people back to work, not make it so demoralising people don't bother.

The "plus" side of it being a debt is that there is an incentive to work - even if working a bit makes you no better off financially at the time, at least you aren't building up more debt. And working a bit is the best way to get back into working a full time job.
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  #25  
Old 03.11.2015, 09:42
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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I get the impression this is why a couple of the couples I know are not getting married despite talking about wanting to get married for years.



The marriage "penalty tax" because a "benefit" if one person is unemployed or very underemployed in for example, a start-up.



I never have received social benefits, but was very careful not to accept subsidised health insurance while a student since I read of a few cases where this may have been the cause for denial of a C-permit.

If only 1 person works there is a huge tax saving with marriage, it's 2 high earners that get penalised.
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  #26  
Old 03.11.2015, 10:44
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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You should also realise that any assistance one does get must may have to be paid back when one finds a job or comes into money, depending on canton and commune, and the amounts involved.
FTFY.

Tom
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  #27  
Old 03.11.2015, 22:44
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

All of this is very eye-opening, thanks to everyone for their contributions.
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  #28  
Old 03.11.2015, 23:04
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

It's tough - I know. But the authorities are likely to make checks with neighbours re the relationship if they believe this person is a partner rather than a lodger, I'm afraid- just as they do in the UK btw. As said, monies will need to be paid back at some point, and in case the person would like to apply for a C permit or naturalisation at some stage, it would all go against her/him, or even both if proven not to be entirely honest.

It's paramount that s/he finds a job at this stage asap- even if not the dream job s/he has been hoping for. Bonne chance x

Last edited by Odile; 03.11.2015 at 23:32.
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  #29  
Old 04.11.2015, 15:11
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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sure about that? As far as I can remember (Kanton Basel) I was told that I would have to declare any earning no matter how small. The assistance would have than had that sum deducted.

From what I read usually a salary isn't enough for ta commune to request a social help pay back, but an inheritance of a house is considered "extra money" that will taken. However, some communes in Aargau were asking people (unlawfully, it supposedly turned out) to surrender their 2 pillar savings when they could pay it out as a lump sum. On one side there is a need for solidarity, on the other people want pay little taxes, or, in case of the ones barely in the middle class, just make the ends meet, so there might be little understanding for others hardship when unemployment rate hovers around its natural value.
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  #30  
Old 04.11.2015, 15:21
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

There is a private Watch making school near Neuchâtel (near me) where suitable re-training can take place with more or less guaranteed job at the end through school contacts.
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  #31  
Old 04.11.2015, 21:15
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

They're just laying off watchmakers in NE at the moment - Le Temps seems to publish every few days about tens of employees let go in various watch making companies.
My son went to an information meeting by a watchmaker school from Valee de Joux - it is all fine until the pay was mentioned - nothing to speak of. I hope it dissuaded him completely from doing a blue-collar career. Nothing against it, but the pay after a supposedly selective school and in well-doing industry doesn't seem encouraging. The problem is also that the teacher said either "4 hundreds" or "four [and] hundred" so we don't know for sure.
And here an interesting link:
Median salaries dropped from 6k in 2009-2011 to 5k now:
http://www.cpih.ch/fr/politique-patr...ger-median.php
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  #32  
Old 04.11.2015, 23:25
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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Hi all, I have a friend who will be reaching the end of his unemployment allowance period next year. He had an appointment with someone from the council who informed him that, because he lives with someone, he is not entitled to any. They don't know if this person is his partner or not, and they live in a 2-bedroom flat so they could for all intents and purposes be housemates. They said if the other person's salary was lower, he would have a claim to it. So... Flatmates are support each other financially when the other one has literally no income? Doesn't sound right to me... They are actually a couple but nothing official on a legal level. If they don't get any of the benefits of being in an officially registered relationship, why should one be expected to support the other? Am I missing something? (By the way, I did a search, honest... If this question has already been asked, please point me in its direction and delete the thread!).
I know of a girl that separated from her ex whom she lived with as bf and gf but never were very public about it. When she left he went into a severe depression and lived on for about another year on his own.
During that time he acrued a personal debt of about 15000 related to the apartment. So the both of them found themselves in court. Her defence was she had no idea of his debts and what he did with his own apartment and they were only bf and gf.

The court said when 2 people live together for enough time it is a common law marriage. No matter if they made it official, registered or whatever. So the court found against the both of them to split what is owed.
I often hear older Swiss guys referring to the women they are living with but not married as their wives. I always thought it was solely a term of endearment. But in fact it is legally binding.
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  #33  
Old 05.11.2015, 00:02
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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I often hear older Swiss guys referring to the women they are living with but not married as their wives. I always thought it was solely a term of endearment. But in fact it is legally binding.
Indeed, I know of women who have made good money that way. (no-one I've personally been involved with, of course, as I know how it goes )

Tom
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  #34  
Old 12.11.2015, 23:00
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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I know of a girl that separated from her ex whom she lived with as bf and gf but never were very public about it. When she left he went into a severe depression and lived on for about another year on his own.
During that time he acrued a personal debt of about 15000 related to the apartment. So the both of them found themselves in court. Her defence was she had no idea of his debts and what he did with his own apartment and they were only bf and gf.
The court said when 2 people live together for enough time it is a common law marriage. No matter if they made it official, registered or whatever. So the court found against the both of them to split what is owed.
But was she registered as being resident there?
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  #35  
Old 12.11.2015, 23:01
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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But was she registered as being resident there?
At the time she was living there. I believe so. But, as far as anyone knew she could have equally been a room mate as there was also another bedroom.
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  #36  
Old 13.11.2015, 08:39
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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as far as anyone knew she could have equally been a room mate as there was also another bedroom.
Exactly, so it is almost as if the ruling was based on hearsay.
I am sure she wasn't expecting to even be involved in the case, let alone having to actually pay something. The idea of not getting married is usually also to avoid these extra responsibilities. It's awful, especially if all of the debts were amassed after she left! One wonders though if perhaps she only moved her official residence elsewhere at a later stage and for this reason was caught up in the matter.

Last edited by plumtree; 13.11.2015 at 09:03.
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Old 13.11.2015, 10:19
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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I know of a girl that separated from her ex whom she lived with as bf and gf but never were very public about it. When she left he went into a severe depression and lived on for about another year on his own.
During that time he acrued a personal debt of about 15000 related to the apartment. So the both of them found themselves in court. Her defence was she had no idea of his debts and what he did with his own apartment and they were only bf and gf.

The court said when 2 people live together for enough time it is a common law marriage. No matter if they made it official, registered or whatever. So the court found against the both of them to split what is owed.
I often hear older Swiss guys referring to the women they are living with but not married as their wives. I always thought it was solely a term of endearment. But in fact it is legally binding.
Common Law does not exist in CH, your referring to something that happened in another country.
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  #38  
Old 13.11.2015, 10:39
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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I know of a girl that separated from her ex whom she lived with as bf and gf but never were very public about it. When she left he went into a severe depression and lived on for about another year on his own.
During that time he acrued a personal debt of about 15000 related to the apartment.
If she signed the rental contract and was never released from it, then both are jointly liable. Even true if just flat mate or when one of the party never lived in the flat.
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  #39  
Old 13.11.2015, 10:55
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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If she signed the rental contract and was never released from it, then both are jointly liable. Even true if just flat mate or when one of the party never lived in the flat.
So interestingly it hasn't anything to do with whether she lived there at any time, nor if she ever had her legal (officially notified) residence there. What matters is whether she signed the rental contract, - but this isn't specified in the post, so we don't know that (yet)!
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Old 13.11.2015, 11:59
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Re: Living with someone = no right to social security?

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Common Law does not exist in CH, your referring to something that happened in another country.
I respect you one of the most on the things you say on this forum. However, I know this girl extremely well. She is Swiss, ex boyfriend is Swiss, and this happened in the Zurich area. You can argue that you disagree about the validity of the ruling. But please don't tell me that that you know more about where it happened then I do.

Also for personal reasons could you provide any information supporting non existence of common law when it comes to debt settlement?

Additionally I know another Swiss couple from 8 years ago (no longer together) where the guy had amassed quite a bit of debt, failure to pay resulted in the police showing up one day very early in the morning and seizing the couples common possessions that were 90% her"s when he said he didn't have the cash to fulfill the outstanding debt.

The girl, currently a doctor, never got her things back citing common law as a reference.
And it's not the first time I have heard this being done before.
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