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Old 03.11.2015, 09:43
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What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

I have been thinking of moving to Switzerland for about 6 months and a few months ago I decided to sent out my CV to some recruitment agencies. I must have sent out about 7 open applications.

I did not apply for specific positions as I also wanted to get some sort of indication as to my chances of getting a job in my field of experience, I.T. I have lived and worked in several European countries however I have always applied after arriving in the country. Just to make things clear, I am an native English speaking EU citizen with no German language ability.

My problem is that I have not had a single response from these recruitment agencies yet and I am trying to find out what the issue might be. It is of course not a great idea to write again and ask why there was no response and no amount of internet search can shed any light on this either as I have tried already. Of course there are many factors however the first few that come to mind are:

-I dont have a degree in I.T. or any field: My highest level of Education was a diploma. Nobody can tell me whether this is a Swiss employment requirement or not. I do however have over 12 years experience in the I.T. field and I do not know if this is valued at all. In the UK and Netherlands it certainly is valued.

-I am not in the country: This could also be causing an issue as recruiters may not see the value in making such effort for someone abroad.

-I don't speak German: This I assume is can be a big issue however I have read many stories of people working in Switzerland withought even viewing to learn the language in the future. I understand French and Italian are also official languages (both of which I speak) however I assume that most jobs require german.

None of the recruiters have even replied to point out any major shortcomings in my application or CV and although they are not required to, it would certainly help. If anyone can shed any light on this I would be most grateful.

thank you!
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Old 03.11.2015, 09:45
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

This is a Friday thread and it's only Tuesday
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Old 03.11.2015, 09:47
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

So basically, you do not live in the country, have not applied for a specific position, and expect them to be doing what exactly? Free private coaching?

Switzerland is one of the most competitive countries in the world to get a job in, and there is no shortage of unqualified general IT bods (and I speak as an ex unqualified IT bod). Without a degree or recognised qualifications you basically have little chance without either being grandfathered in by your current company (as I was), or moving here to establish yourself, or having specialist skills which are in short supply, and that does not include IT support and networking.
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Old 03.11.2015, 10:13
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

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So basically, you do not live in the country, have not applied for a specific position, and expect them to be doing what exactly? Free private coaching?

Switzerland is one of the most competitive countries in the world to get a job in, and there is no shortage of unqualified general IT bods (and I speak as an ex unqualified IT bod). You basically have little chance without either being grandfathered in by your current company (as I was), or moving here to establish yourself, or having specialist skills which are in short supply, and that does not include IT support and networking.
Hi and thanks for the honest reply. No I did not expect free private coaching but I hoped that they might have told me something along the lines of: I have No chance unless I am in the country or I have no chance without the language. Or perhaps send me in the right direction. Hence my post on this forum as I have so far been unable to find such information researching the internet.

I am moving back to Europe and wanted to weigh up my chances in different countries such as Switzerland vs Germany vs Austria. Being present in the country is something I can change with a simple flight however my lack of German would take a while to change and lack of a Degree I am not sure I would do this at all. If the latter is definitely a show stopper then I already have my answer and I will not bother hence my questions regarding these two factors. I am still unable to find information specifically telling me whether a degree is a pre-requisite or not.

I appreciate your info and it is helpful to know that there are already plenty of people like me (unqualified) looking for work there so it might not be a great idea. Of course my specific experience might fit perfectly with a particular role however it might be totally ignored for the simple fact that I am not there or I dont have German or a Degree. I have no idea on this.
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Old 03.11.2015, 10:20
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

You've discovered Swiss apathy at it's best.

Agencies and prospective employers tend to give back only positive feedback to the successful applicant(s) only - it's easier that way.

Remember, no news is ...... rejection.
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Old 03.11.2015, 10:34
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

Why not start with looking at jobs in the UK, where language is not an issue?

I'm just curious as to why you are set on Germany, Austria and Switzerland if you don't speak German?
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Old 03.11.2015, 10:41
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

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Hi and thanks for the honest reply. No I did not expect free private coaching but I hoped that they might have told me something along the lines of: I have No chance unless I am in the country or I have no chance without the language. Or perhaps send me in the right direction. Hence my post on this forum as I have so far been unable to find such information researching the internet.

I am moving back to Europe and wanted to weigh up my chances in different countries such as Switzerland vs Germany vs Austria. Being present in the country is something I can change with a simple flight however my lack of German would take a while to change and lack of a Degree I am not sure I would do this at all. If the latter is definitely a show stopper then I already have my answer and I will not bother hence my questions regarding these two factors. I am still unable to find information specifically telling me whether a degree is a pre-requisite or not.

I appreciate your info and it is helpful to know that there are already plenty of people like me (unqualified) looking for work there so it might not be a great idea. Of course my specific experience might fit perfectly with a particular role however it might be totally ignored for the simple fact that I am not there or I don't have German or a Degree. I have no idea on this.
Believe it or not, a relatively large proportion of the Swiss workforce (vs other mainland Europe) do not have a degree, they have various other routes into work such as vocational training and apprenticeships etc. However, as an Auslander without the relevant language skills you will find it very tough (I'm not saying impossible, mind) to even get a foot in the door and compete with them. If you speak good French then apply in the French-speaking areas. Also don't make the mistake of only sending your CV to recruitment agencies... do some specific research and check out the companies in the big cities, check the job sites, and try applying personally using applications specifically tailored to the company and role. The major stumbling block you will face will be the extra effort a company has to go to the trouble of getting you a permit... if you don't live here and have a B permit then many companies are put off by this.

I also note that, worryingly, you state "I have 12 years experience in the IT field" and yet don't state what that experience is (IT is too broad to get away with saying stuff like that, especially when you want detailed advice), and in addition don't state if in this long 12 year period you gained any recognised IT certifications or not? Do you have anything?
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Old 03.11.2015, 10:48
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

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Why not start with looking at jobs in the UK, where language is not an issue?

I'm just curious as to why you are set on Germany, Austria and Switzerland if you don't speak German?
It's just that I lived in the UK for almost a decade and although I loved it there, it really felt like I had had my fun and it was time to go. I have considered returning but wanted to experience something different.

I particularly like the above mentioned countries and have visited them as a tourist and for snow sports many times. Having all that skiing so close is a real attraction for me. Benelux is also an option however I lived in the Netherlands and Belgium for over 5 years and feel that I have experienced that also. English was widely accepted as the official language in the companies I worked for in Holland and I know that some countries are more restrictive than others regarding language. Germany, Austria and Switzerland are totally unknown to me as far as my career prospects go.
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Old 03.11.2015, 10:54
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

I can't speak for Germany or Austria, but Switzerland will be a tough job market to apply to as a non EU national.

The same applies for us Swiss citizens when we apply to Australia though
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Old 03.11.2015, 10:57
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

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I can't speak for Germany or Austria, but Switzerland will be a tough job market to apply to as a non EU national.

The same applies for us Swiss citizens when we apply to Australia though
The OP claims to be a English speaking EU citizen.
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Old 03.11.2015, 10:58
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

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The OP claims to be a English speaking EU citizen.
My bad, I skipped that piece of information...
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Old 03.11.2015, 11:00
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I can't speak for Germany or Austria, but Switzerland will be a tough job market to apply to as a non EU national.

The same applies for us Swiss citizens when we apply to Australia though
Australia is tough for anyone, so I have heard

I do have both Australian and Italian citizenship so I hold an EU passport...

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Believe it or not, a relatively large proportion of the Swiss workforce (vs other mainland Europe) do not have a degree, they have various other routes into work such as vocational training and apprenticeships etc. However, as an Auslander without the relevant language skills you will find it very tough (I'm not saying impossible, mind) to even get a foot in the door and compete with them. If you speak good French then apply in the French-speaking areas. Also don't make the mistake of only sending your CV to recruitment agencies... do some specific research and check out the companies in the big cities, check the job sites, and try applying personally using applications specifically tailored to the company and role. The major stumbling block you will face will be the extra effort a company has to go to the trouble of getting you a permit... if you don't live here and have a B permit then many companies are put off by this.

I also note that, worryingly, you state "I have 12 years experience in the IT field" and yet don't state what that experience is (IT is too broad to get away with saying stuff like that, especially when you want detailed advice), and in addition don't state if in this long 12 year period you gained any recognised IT certifications or not? Do you have anything?
I come from a windows background with experience in Server 2003 and 2008 (server administration) and although I completed a course in Maintaining, Configuring and managing windows 2008 I don't have the MCSA or similar. I am still wondering whether to do this or not. I have my ITIL and of course extensive experience in tech support for all windows operating systems. I started out in customer support, moving on to technical support, account management and system support for JP morgan, Fortis and the like and then onto server administration and then my last role.

My last role was as a NOC engineer was a summation of all my experience, client-facing and technical as we had to do both and work with all parties involved from the clients to development to the upper management as well as troubleshooting any issues our monitoring picked up, logging issues, ect. I was also responsible for all the IT procurement and management for our department so this was good experience also. NOC roles are difficult to come by though it seems and it's a very particular set of skills that are required. This is what gives me the idea that I might stand out from others and although there are few NOC jobs about, not everyone can provide the skills required.

If no degree is not a show-stopper then I am in with some chance. I do speak French and Italian so these might help. My German is coming along but not good enough for any type of business conversation. In holland, Dutch was not required for many companies and I was hoping there might be similarly relaxed companies in Switzerland. I have read stories (forum threads, ect) that suggest this is the case.

sorry, what is a B permit?

Last edited by 3Wishes; 03.11.2015 at 22:39. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 03.11.2015, 11:28
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

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sorry, what is a B permit?
Here's a brief summary of the different permits to live in Switzerland:

https://www.ch.ch/en/renewal-overvie...idence-permit/

As an EU national you would obtain a B permit
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Old 03.11.2015, 11:28
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

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In holland, Dutch was not required for many companies and I was hoping there might be similarly relaxed companies in Switzerland. I have read stories (forum threads, ect) that suggest this is the case.
You must have misunderstood these threads. Only large MNCs will consider people who don't speak the local language. That's the same MNCs which are currently moving their NOCs from Switzerland and London to low cost countries...
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Old 03.11.2015, 11:31
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

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I come from a windows background with experience in Server 2003 and 2008 (server administration) and although I completed a course in Maintaining, Configuring and managing windows 2008 I don't have the MCSA or similar. I am still wondering whether to do this or not. I have my ITIL and of course extensive experience in tech support for all windows operating systems. I started out in customer support, moving on to technical support, account management and system support for JP morgan, Fortis and the like and then onto server administration and then my last role.

My last role was as a NOC engineer was a summation of all my experience, client-facing and technical as we had to do both and work with all parties involved from the clients to development to the upper management as well as troubleshooting any issues our monitoring picked up, logging issues, ect. I was also responsible for all the IT procurement and management for our department so this was good experience also. NOC roles are difficult to come by though it seems and it's a very particular set of skills that are required. This is what gives me the idea that I might stand out from others and although there are few NOC jobs about, not everyone can provide the skills required.

If no degree is not a show-stopper then I am in with some chance. I do speak French and Italian so these might help. My German is coming along but not good enough for any type of business conversation. In holland, Dutch was not required for many companies and I was hoping there might be similarly relaxed companies in Switzerland. I have read stories (forum threads, ect) that suggest this is the case.
No degree makes things trickier vs one of your peers with similar experience who has a degree, but it's not the be-all and end-all as some people would have you think. Character, drive and experience still counts for a lot, and anyone who says otherwise may not always necessarily be someone you want to work for. There are many big companies, especially in and around Zürich/Geneva, where the business language is English, and with your experience (now that it's all a bit clearer) your best bet may be banks and financial/insurance institutions that have large and complex IT environments.

Trawl the mass market job sites (Jobs.ch etc), trawl the specific company site job pages, apply to the big IT recruiters and maybe call them directly to get advice and explain what you're about (that will help rather than just sending faceless CV's), and see what turns up. Good luck, because imo if you get yourself established here and get a good social circle going then it's a truly amazing place to be.

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sorry, what is a B permit?
Tip for getting future help: please don't waste our time asking questions like this, do your basic research as everything is a very quick Google away. Use the forum members to get advice for things you have researched yourself and still don't understand
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Old 03.11.2015, 11:34
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

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It is of course not a great idea to write again and ask why there was no response
Why?

Don't ask, don't get.

But you do need to find a role that you are qualified for (jobs.ch, monster.ch, jobserve.ch etc etc), then you can send an application and follow up with a phone call. Those sites will also give you the names of agencies working on your sort of roles.
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Old 03.11.2015, 11:37
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

Try Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland as well.
They might be more welcoming to English-only speakers, and some of them would have ski-locations nearby.

Cheers
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Old 03.11.2015, 12:15
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

English is widely spoken among EF members but not necessarily in Switzerland. According to a company coincidentally called EF, English in Switzerland ranks 19th, behind Austria at 10th and Germany at 11th. The top countries for English as a second language are:

1) Sweden
2) Netherlands
3) Denmark
4) Norway
5) Finland

http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/sch...id4320014.html
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Old 03.11.2015, 12:16
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Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?

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You must have misunderstood these threads. Only large MNCs will consider people who don't speak the local language. That's the same MNCs which are currently moving their NOCs from Switzerland and London to low cost countries...
The changing IT landscape is something the OP needs to understand.

Yes, Switzerland used to be a hub for skilled IT folks, that's why many EFers were recruited to Switzerland 10, 15 years ago. But those days are over.

Many of the MNCs - and some smaller Swiss firms as well - simply cannot justify the cost of 'first world' IT salaries anymore, let alone the even higher costs in Switzerland. IT jobs that are not directly tied to a Swiss-based profit making function are going.

If you want to work in IT for a Swiss company, Poland is the place to look.
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Old 03.11.2015, 12:53
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No degree makes things trickier vs one of your peers with similar experience who has a degree, but it's not the be-all and end-all as some people would have you think. Character, drive and experience still counts for a lot, and anyone who says otherwise may not always necessarily be someone you want to work for. There are many big companies, especially in and around Zürich/Geneva, where the business language is English, and with your experience (now that it's all a bit clearer) your best bet may be banks and financial/insurance institutions that have large and complex IT environments.

Trawl the mass market job sites (Jobs.ch etc), trawl the specific company site job pages, apply to the big IT recruiters and maybe call them directly to get advice and explain what you're about (that will help rather than just sending faceless CV's), and see what turns up. Good luck, because imo if you get yourself established here and get a good social circle going then it's a truly amazing place to be.



Tip for getting future help: please don't waste our time asking questions like this, do your basic research as everything is a very quick Google away. Use the forum members to get advice for things you have researched yourself and still don't understand
Yeah sorry you are right that was just me being lazy and thanks for all the great input, I now have some good info that I can use. In the past when moving country I didn't give much thought to the possibility that I might end up jobless and peniless and I always found my way. But this time I'm especially cautious as with my current finances I'll get one shot at this and not much more (especially in Switzerland). No hope for a backup plan or help either hence having to decide on one country, go for it and hope for the best.

Preparation is everything....apparently

Thanks

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The changing IT landscape is something the OP needs to understand.

Yes, Switzerland used to be a hub for skilled IT folks, that's why many EFers were recruited to Switzerland 10, 15 years ago. But those days are over.

Many of the MNCs - and some smaller Swiss firms as well - simply cannot justify the cost of 'first world' IT salaries anymore, let alone the even higher costs in Switzerland. IT jobs that are not directly tied to a Swiss-based profit making function are going.

If you want to work in IT for a Swiss company, Poland is the place to look.
I guess I expected the Swiss IT industry and job availability to be similar to the one I left behind in the Netherlands where there were plenty of jobs and salaries were better than decent. That was only a year or two ago but perhaps that has changed already.

Poland? I've never considered it but right now options are my best friend so I will need all I can get

Last edited by 3Wishes; 03.11.2015 at 22:40. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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