Dear all,

I have read a few summary articles and the odd post that suggests that there is still a gender difference in pay in Switzerland: women still on average get paid less than men (and I recognise that unfortunately it exists in other countries as well). Could anyone shed more light on this? I need to start negotiating my contract in the next couple of weeks and this is an issue of fairness that I feel very strongly about - although I don't know how I would ever find out if there were any differences.

All ideas welcome!

Thanks and best regards
GVAbound

You'll still find a lot of managers (men) setting salaries based on your supposed need rather than your qualifications. And in their (oldfashioned) world, men need a higher salary because they are the sole bread-winner of the family (they assume). That is why women traditionally earn less for the same job in Switzerland.

Ask for a high salary, they can only say no, my husband started a new job this year, and he pushed for a high salary, and they came to an agreement where the bank, and my husband was very happy

Goodluck, and never be to scared to ask for more

That is the other reason why men earn more - they are brought up to be bold. Women generally are not.

Well i am a women, and i would push for the highest salary if i worked here (i am a stay at home mum).

Thanks. I'm waiting to get an idea of the whole package but I definitely will push for a higher amount - it is my first time working in Switzerland, so I have no idea of the range/flexibility at hand. An additional issue is that it is a 'non-profit' organisation so I am having to balance up what is reasonable for the organisation, what is reasonable for me (10+ years experience post-grad) and the cost of living in Geneva.
Best,
GVAbound

Well, statistics say there are male vs female pay differences (for the same job and qualifications) of 75 cents to the dollar (i.e. for every dollar a man makes, a woman makes 75 cents in the same job) even in the US!

Many people suggest this is not because women are being discriminated against but simply because women tend to avoid negotiating salary after a job is offered, or they negotiate less aggressively because we (in general) tend to prefer to avoid conflict/competition/appearing aggressive.

That being said, I was the highest paid engineer in my group of all male engineers in my last two jobs (we were all at the same level). One was in the US and the other was in Switzerland.

So, my suggestion to you: Don't worry about the statistics, just negotiate and get paid what you deserve!

Good luck!

There's a couple of less headline grabbing reasons for this phenomenon too.

Firstly women tend to have a big chunk out of what a really productive part of their career to have kids. Not all but easily enough to make a statistical difference, and one that's quite hard to control for.

So to take for example two 35 year old Senior Business Analysts with degrees in Computer Science, the male might have 10 years experience, while the female might only have 6, and might have only returned to work 2 years ago, so had to get back into it. They both started their career at the same time, have the same title and the same qualifications.

Secondly women do tend to take more time off to deal with kids, and are more likely to work flexitime or work from home. In my view that is a natural and healthy thing. Women's priorities change and the family takes precedence over career.

Conversely men in their 30s are more likely to throw themselves into their work to meet the demands of a growing family and big mortgage on a single income. Of course most would still say that family is their main priority, but since they are more likely to support than nurture this shows up in the statistics as a pay gap.

Last comment from blueshrimp is the best advice: ignore the statistics and aim for what you are worth. There's plenty of well paid women and plenty of underpaid men out there and a raw aggregate of salaries, titles and qualifications is about as meaningful as lottery numbers in figuring out what you are worth.

or there is the stereotypical view which was expressed by the former President of Harvard that men are less balanced than women and thus more likely to throw themselves into work. Though, that comment was one of the many things that led to his sacking (or resigning).

Okay sorry for the somewhat off topic blathering.

I find all this pay difference a bit odd. When we advertise a job within our organisation, we've kind of already worked out a budget for the position. We don't really give a toss whether a man or a woman or a trained chimp gets the job so long as they can do it and they fit in with the team (or, of course, lead the team).

Fact is, the salary is already worked out before the person is chosen for the role with a bit of leeway if the person is fab and pushes for a bit more but, again, that isn't gender specific. Ladies as well as men have let us know if we are paying too little and, in my experience, neither are shy about piping up about this fact...

I only recruit up to a junior management level so I don't know if this is the same for the senior management recruitment, though.

What do these other organisations do? "Oh God, we've recruited a woman - quick, drop the salary 25% and see if she notices!" Hmmm...

By the way, this isn't always the case; I work in a different city to where we live whereas my husband works round the corner to our son's nursery. Guess who gets yanked out of a meeting when the little fella develops a runny bum or a nasty rash..?

Several things: A woman with 6 years experience doesn't have "the same qualifications" as a man with 8 years experience, even if they are the same age. Obviously, the man has 2 years more. So you're not comparing apples to apples there.

Secondly: What if the woman in question is unmarried/single/has no kids? There is no reason she "should make less" because she is expected to "take time off or work from home to deal with the kids"....that she doesn't have?? This is all bogus.

Thirdly: not true that women "take more time off". If taking time off were an issue, smokers should be paid less than non-smokers because smokers take several 10min "smoking breaks" during the day.

Fourthly: "Men in their 30s are more likely to throw themselves into their work" as opposed to whom? Women in their 30's? Single women in their 30s? Married women in their 50s?? What? And on what basis do you claim that? And even if it were true (which I find highly doubtful), it is not a matter of "throwing yourself into work" what adds value to the company, but what you accomplish in your work that matters. It is not a question of "working longer hours" but rather "accomplishing more during the hours you're at work". This, again, is independent of gender.

Someone else said that companies already have certain "salary bands" in mind. So, what you do, as a woman (or man, doesn't matter) is try to set things up so that you get paid in the upper end of the band. Companies never offer upper end at the beginning. So getting to the upper end means you have to negotiate. Pretty simple, really.

Whoever claims that there are "differences in productivity" between men and women for most kinds of professional jobs to justify or explain the observed statistical lower women pay is ignoring a lot of factors and evidence, especially nowadays where the average stay at a job is less than 5 years. One...has to be a bit more careful with judgements like these.

One should also bear in mind that there is a difference in salary between the Swiss and non-Swiss.

It is possible that some organisations offer less money to non-Swiss candidates who are less likely to know what the going rate is. On the other hand, Swiss candidates already have an idea of what their salary should be, and when moving from one job to another, they are in a better position to negotiate more for their position.

I am aware of a few Swiss people in my company who earn way to much for their position, while their non-Swiss counterpart can earn up to 30% less. Though, the gap can narrow after a few years once the non-Swiss employee becomes more aware of their worth.

But all in all, I think there are many factors affecting your salary. I agree with Sandgrounder that most employers don't really consider gender when deciding the salary, that the salary is usually dictated by the department's budget. Though, there is likely to be a salary band, and where you fit in that salary band probably depends on your experience, age, gender, nationality, etc.

Statistical studies don't. That was my point. They take key indicators for vast numbers of people and throw up numbers which should be treated with extreme skepticism.

No, but she probably won't earn less either individuall. However enough women do take time off for children that as a group it would lower the average.

[quote]
Thirdly: not true that women "take more time off". If taking time off were an issue, smokers should be paid less than non-smokers because smokers take several 10min "smoking breaks" during the day.
[quote]

Do smokers earn more or less than the average? I have no idea if any one has even measured it, and it's probably a good thing they don't.

As opposed to women of a similar age. On the basis that men in their 30s are far less likely to fall pregnant.

You've really missed the point.

As I said. So unless you're saying women aren't as good at negotiating, you're agreeing with me that it's down to the individual in question rather than a meaningless statistic?

It seems like you've missed the point a bit. I didn't say women were less productive, less able or less committed to their jobs. I said as a statistical average their earnings are likely to be lower due to some of those sort of factors, which based mainly on my own experience, are true.

Take a hypothetical company with 10 men and 10 women. All at the same level, same qualifications and all paid the same. One of them goes part time to raise the kids so the average of all the women is brought down. Does that make the company sexist?

International organisations have salary bands for sure, and they pay based upon where you come from, married or not, kids.

I received an offer for an international organisation, and they would
not negotiate at all.

(sigh), and it seems like you missed mine.

Oh well, that's how it goes in them "internets". (shrug)

The average of all the women would not be brought down if that "one of them" was a man...

That's true. I knew as soon as I re-read it someone would pick up on that. Doh! I meant one of the women, which is more likely in my experience.

[quote=AJS78;228041]

On the basis that men in their 30s are far less likely to fall pregnant.

quote]

...unless they somehow developed ovaries and a uterus, in which case they would surely include the transformation into their CVs.

In international organisations there are usually separate scales for employees with dependent (ie unemployed or partially employed) spouses and also dependency allowances for children, including education grants which enable parents to send their children to private schools and universities with up to 75% of tuition (some ceilings apply) covered by the organisation.

There is 16 weeks of fully paid maternity leave and 4 weeks of paternity leave. There is breastfeeding time allowance until the child is 12 months old. You can arrange to work from home or part-time. You can take unpaid leave and come back after 2 years to the same position, especially when you have a permanent contract

But you can not negotiate the salary, promotions usually take years and there are no bonuses.