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Old 15.12.2015, 13:54
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Finding a job in IT and getting settled

Hi

I would like to ask for your advice according to the topic below.

First some info about myself in case it helps, but if not relevant, skip this paragraph.
I'm female, 26 y.o., non-EU national, have just started my PhD at Uni Zurich in June 2015, employed as a research assistant at the university and hold B-permit. I speak English pretty well, German enough to live but not enough to work (I would estimate it as between B1 and B2). In my plans it is to finish PhD and then to continue to PostDoc or to go to the industry, which means to stay in Switzerland. But in a couple of years I would also like to have a child.

My husband is the same nationality as I am, 32 y.o. Now he has his job in the city where we both came from, but comes to Switzerland for two weeks in a month and works from home remotely. However, obviously the income there is about 4-5 times lower than the possible income for him here. We finally applied for the permit for him as a process of family reunion and we expect to get it in a week. He will be allowed to work. He has 11 years of experience in IT and now works as an IT project manager. The problem is that he speaks only a few English and hardly speak any German, however, he started learning both.

My questions according this are the following:
1. Is it worth giving up his current job and moving completely to Switzerland? We live in Zurich, my salary as PhD is 3300 CHF, which is still ok for a single but not ok for a couple anymore. Learning both English and German might take a long time before he will actually be able to find a job here.

2. If yes, will it be possible for him to register at RAV and apply for some benefits? I consider this option but wouldn't prefer it, because it might influence further permit applications... And moreover, I still think that we both have to work here and it's not fair to ask for any support from the Swiss government.

3. Will it be possible for him to get a position of IT manager (which requires a strong command of English and German) or it is easier to re-qulify to some programming or testing activities?

4. As far as I understand now, his permit is going to be "dependent" on mine. In case he finds a job here, is it possible to make mine as a "dependent" one? Because I'm not sure if PhD is considered the same for counting year to C permit.

So basically I'm asking for a "wise" strategy in our case

Thanks!
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Old 15.12.2015, 21:44
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

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Hi
My questions according this are the following:

1. Is it worth giving up his current job and moving completely to Switzerland? We live in Zurich, my salary as PhD is 3300 CHF, which is still ok for a single but not ok for a couple anymore. Learning both English and German might take a long time before he will actually be able to find a job here.

2. If yes, will it be possible for him to register at RAV and apply for some benefits? I consider this option but wouldn't prefer it, because it might influence further permit applications... And moreover, I still think that we both have to work here and it's not fair to ask for any support from the Swiss government.

3. Will it be possible for him to get a position of IT manager (which requires a strong command of English and German) or it is easier to re-qulify to some programming or testing activities?

4. As far as I understand now, his permit is going to be "dependent" on mine. In case he finds a job here, is it possible to make mine as a "dependent" one? Because I'm not sure if PhD is considered the same for counting year to C permit.

So basically I'm asking for a "wise" strategy in our case

Thanks!
You've analysed your situation quite thoroughly and have a realistic understanding of the issues and risks. My answers/ opinions:

1. Move to Switzerland: only you can decide whether the benefits of living together outweigh the risk that your husband might be unemployed for some time.

2. RAV: unemployment insurance payments and support are available to those who have paid into the fund for at least one year. Your husband has not paid into the fund and so would not be able to obtain unemployment insurance payments or other RAV assistance.

3. IT Manager: unless your husband can work in his native language (Russian?) in Switzerland, it will be difficult to obtain a manager's job until he learns sufficient German (or possibly English). It would likely be easier for him to obtain a job programming where his German/ English language skills would not have to be as high.

4. C Permit: you are correct that as a non-EU citizen your time spent studying at the PhD level will not count towards a C Permit. I am unable to respond whether you could become a "dependent" of your husband after he finds a job.

I wish you good luck with your decision.
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Old 15.12.2015, 22:01
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

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Hi

I would like to ask for your advice according to the topic below.

First some info about myself in case it helps, but if not relevant, skip this paragraph.
I'm female, 26 y.o., non-EU national, have just started my PhD at Uni Zurich in June 2015, employed as a research assistant at the university and hold B-permit. I speak English pretty well, German enough to live but not enough to work (I would estimate it as between B1 and B2). In my plans it is to finish PhD and then to continue to PostDoc or to go to the industry, which means to stay in Switzerland. But in a couple of years I would also like to have a child.

My husband is the same nationality as I am, 32 y.o. Now he has his job in the city where we both came from, but comes to Switzerland for two weeks in a month and works from home remotely. However, obviously the income there is about 4-5 times lower than the possible income for him here. We finally applied for the permit for him as a process of family reunion and we expect to get it in a week. He will be allowed to work. He has 11 years of experience in IT and now works as an IT project manager. The problem is that he speaks only a few English and hardly speak any German, however, he started learning both.

My questions according this are the following:
1. Is it worth giving up his current job and moving completely to Switzerland? We live in Zurich, my salary as PhD is 3300 CHF, which is still ok for a single but not ok for a couple anymore. Learning both English and German might take a long time before he will actually be able to find a job here.

2. If yes, will it be possible for him to register at RAV and apply for some benefits? I consider this option but wouldn't prefer it, because it might influence further permit applications... And moreover, I still think that we both have to work here and it's not fair to ask for any support from the Swiss government.

3. Will it be possible for him to get a position of IT manager (which requires a strong command of English and German) or it is easier to re-qulify to some programming or testing activities?

4. As far as I understand now, his permit is going to be "dependent" on mine. In case he finds a job here, is it possible to make mine as a "dependent" one? Because I'm not sure if PhD is considered the same for counting year to C permit.

So basically I'm asking for a "wise" strategy in our case

Thanks!
1. No, it's not really enough for two adults to live comfortably in Zürich when one isn't working.

2. Why would you think he can come straight into the country and immediately get unemployment benefits, when he has paid nothing into the system? This isn't England.

3. You're asking if it will be possible to get a position which requires English and German... if he can't speak English and German? Yes of course, he will walk right into a job.

4. No idea.

I don't know if it's just me, but I am starting to get amazed at he number of people who think who seem to be under some serious delusions about how much of a walk in the park Switzerland is going to be. Can't speak English or German but want an IT management job in Zürich? Yeah, sure, no problem. Want RAV the moment you come into the country while you start learning some relevant languages to eventually be productive? Yeah, sure.

Your husband has a job and presumably plenty of time in the evenings while you study in a foreign land to start learning relevant language in his home country, how will he benefit from coming here and having no income and no language skills to get one? You will burn through money and savings and have a reduced quality of life as a result of your low income.

I'm sorry, but what happened to basic common sense.

PS: I do wish you luck, but please, be a little more realistic...

Last edited by Richdog; 15.12.2015 at 22:18.
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Old 15.12.2015, 22:43
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

Let him learn the language. Otherwise no chance. Even a programmer's job still requites at least some rudimentary language skills unless he is a rock-star developer. I know no developer who speaks no English at all, seriously, so I guess your husband must be at least at some basic level of English, so let him go to intensive all weekend or all evening classes and within a year or less he will be more than ready.
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Old 15.12.2015, 22:54
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

Yeah, pretty much all programming jobs here require a good grasp of English and it's usually listed as a job requirement, then depending on the company, native language skills to varying degrees are also required. A programming job in a local company for example will still need to be able to communicate their requirements to the programmer in the native language. An international company would be less strict.
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Old 15.12.2015, 23:02
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

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Yeah, pretty much all programming jobs here require a good grasp of English and it's usually listed as a job requirement, then depending on the company, native language skills to varying degrees are also required. A programming job in a local company for example will still need to be able to communicate their requirements to the programmer in the native language. An international company would be less strict.
He is not programming, he is an IT project manager. That's a job that requires people to communicate all day every day. Not a chance to find a job without at least German OR English on a near to native speaker level. Most PMs in Zurich will be able to speak both.
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Old 16.12.2015, 00:35
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

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4. C Permit: you are correct that as a non-EU citizen your time spent studying at the PhD level will not count towards a C Permit.
I don't think this is correct. I'm non EU and the years I spent here as a PhD student did count towards a C permit (10 years)...the rest of your questions see the other replies.
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Old 16.12.2015, 01:39
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

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I don't think this is correct. I'm non EU and the years I spent here as a PhD student did count towards a C permit (10 years)...the rest of your questions see the other replies.
Thank you for critically reading my responses.

The underlined sentence says: "Stays (by non-EU/EFTA citizens) as doctoral and postdoctoral students are also generally not counted for the required period."

"Aufenthalte zur Aus- oder Weiterbildung (Art. 27 AuG) werden angerechnet, wenn die betroffene Person nach deren Beendigung während zweier Jahre ununterbrochen im Besitz einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung für einen dauerhaften Aufenthalt war (Art. 34 Abs. 5 AuG). Aufenthalte als Doktoranden und Postdoktoranden werden grundsätzlich ebenfalls nicht an die Nieder- lassungsfrist angerechnet. Doktoranden/Postdoktoranden aus EU/EFTA-Staaten, die während ihrer wissenschaftlichen Tätigkeit einen Arbeitsvertrag (Erwerbstätigkeit über 15 Wochenstunden) ausüben, sind als Arbeitskräfte im Sinne des Gemeinschaftsrechts zu betrachten. Ihnen wird der Aufenthalt deshalb rückwirkend an die Niederlassungsfrist angerechnet, wenn im Anschluss an die wissenschaftliche Tätigkeit ein Wechsel in die Privatwirtschaft oder in die öffentliche Verwaltung erfolgt(e) und ein überjähriger Arbeitsvertrag vorliegt. Für die anderen Doktoranden und Postdoktoranden ist Art. 34 Abs. 5 AuG zu beachten."

http://www.ma.zh.ch/internet/sicherheitsdirektion/migrationsamt/de/rechtliche_grundlagen/bewilligungen_einreiseundaufenthalt/_jcr_content/contentPar/downloadlist_5/downloaditems/erteilung_der_nieder.spooler.download.143342117080 7.pdf/B.1.2.9.1+Niederlassungsbewilligung+-+Internetversion,+allegra+raus-testdaf+rein,+1.06.2015.pdf

However, if the (non-EU/ EFTA) PhD student or post-doc holds a permanent residence permit for two years after completion then the period of education is included in the required period.

Federal Act on Foreign Nationals
Art. 34, Paragraph 5 says:

"Temporary periods of stay, in particular for education or training (Art. 27), do not count towards the uninterrupted period of stay in the last five years in accordance with paragraphs 2 letter a and 4. Periods of stay for education or training (Art. 27) are included if the person concerned, after their completion, held a permanent residence permit for an uninterrupted period of two years."

https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/20020232/index.html
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Old 16.12.2015, 01:50
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

This is a "long shot". It appears that you and your husband are Russian nationals. Have you explored whether you or your husband have German ancestry and might be considered "Spätaussiedler" by Germany? This would allow you or your husband to obtain German citizenship automatically:

http://www.bamf.de/DE/Migration/Spae...dler-node.html
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Old 16.12.2015, 09:09
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

1. If he gets a family reunification permit then by definition he's supposed to move here permanently. He's your dependent and is expected to live with you here full time, that's what reunification is all about. If he isn't doing that, then he's not entitled to a dependent's permit. As a resident, i.e. has a Swiss permit, he will also be required to take out Swiss health insurance.

2. No, as he's not paid into the system either here or in another EU country he would get no unemployment benefit.

3. Others have answered better than I can on this.

4. No, you are the main permit holder.
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Old 17.12.2015, 10:47
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

Dear all,

thanks for your responses.

I didn't want you to get me wrong, we don't intend to get unemployment benefits by no means, however, I considered it to be an emergence in our case if he gives up his current job. But ok, he's not allowed to get it and it's quite clear now.

We both understand that it's not possible to find a job for him speaking only Russian, but looking for a possible and quickest way out of it. Probably, investing now more time in English is better than to try to learn both.

According to what Mullhollander quoted, here it's also written that "Doktoranden/Postdoktoranden aus EU/EFTA-Staaten, die während ihrer wissenschaftlichen Tätigkeit einen Arbeitsvertrag (Erwerbstätigkeit über 15 Wochenstunden) ausüben, sind als Arbeitskräfte im Sinne des Gemeinschaftsrechts zu betrachten."
I'm employed as a research assistant for 25 hrs/week. Does it mean that my permit is the same as for those people who're having a "normal" job?
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Old 17.12.2015, 10:59
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

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Dear all,

thanks for your responses.

I didn't want you to get me wrong, we don't intend to get unemployment benefits by no means, however, I considered it to be an emergence in our case if he gives up his current job. But ok, he's not allowed to get it and it's quite clear now.

We both understand that it's not possible to find a job for him speaking only Russian, but looking for a possible and quickest way out of it. Probably, investing now more time in English is better than to try to learn both.

According to what Mullhollander quoted, here it's also written that "Doktoranden/Postdoktoranden aus EU/EFTA-Staaten, die während ihrer wissenschaftlichen Tätigkeit einen Arbeitsvertrag (Erwerbstätigkeit über 15 Wochenstunden) ausüben, sind als Arbeitskräfte im Sinne des Gemeinschaftsrechts zu betrachten."
I'm employed as a research assistant for 25 hrs/week. Does it mean that my permit is the same as for those people who're having a "normal" job?
Yeah right, it's an "emergency" if your husband decides to give up a good paid job in his safe home country to come to find work in a place that he isn't able to find work in? Give me a break, it's hardly a migrant crisis.

Last edited by Richdog; 17.12.2015 at 11:25.
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Old 17.12.2015, 22:51
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

My EU colleagues' trailing spouses, who worked in their home country before, tapped into unemployment benefits here after moving to CH. Leaches.
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Old 18.12.2015, 08:08
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

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Dear all,

thanks for your responses.

I didn't want you to get me wrong, we don't intend to get unemployment benefits by no means, however, I considered it to be an emergence in our case if he gives up his current job. But ok, he's not allowed to get it and it's quite clear now.

We both understand that it's not possible to find a job for him speaking only Russian, but looking for a possible and quickest way out of it. Probably, investing now more time in English is better than to try to learn both.

According to what Mullhollander quoted, here it's also written that "Doktoranden/Postdoktoranden aus EU/EFTA-Staaten, die während ihrer wissenschaftlichen Tätigkeit einen Arbeitsvertrag (Erwerbstätigkeit über 15 Wochenstunden) ausüben, sind als Arbeitskräfte im Sinne des Gemeinschaftsrechts zu betrachten."
I'm employed as a research assistant for 25 hrs/week. Does it mean that my permit is the same as for those people who're having a "normal" job?
Your quote refers to EU or EFTA countries and you stated very clearly that you are from a non-EU country so it doesn't apply to your case anyway.
Finding a (non part-time) job after finishing your PhD is your only chance to settle here and bring your husband in decent conditions. I don't think it is wise to make him resign from his job and have him idle here instead. It would be a loss, not only financially but also professionally and am sure you both know that. So let him study English for the beginning, acquire a good level and maybe after that, with a good CV and persistence he can get some interviews here. At least you will get a clear picture re. your chances in CH.
Good luck.
Btw, unemployments benefits are out of the question legally in his case as he never worked here. I don't know if you could qualify to other type of social help though, have no idea.

Last edited by greenmount; 18.12.2015 at 08:27.
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Old 18.12.2015, 11:19
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Re: Finding a job in IT and getting settled

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Your quote refers to EU or EFTA countries and you stated very clearly that you are from a non-EU country so it doesn't apply to your case anyway.
Finding a (non part-time) job after finishing your PhD is your only chance to settle here and bring your husband in decent conditions. I don't think it is wise to make him resign from his job and have him idle here instead. It would be a loss, not only financially but also professionally and am sure you both know that. So let him study English for the beginning, acquire a good level and maybe after that, with a good CV and persistence he can get some interviews here. At least you will get a clear picture re. your chances in CH.
Good luck.
Btw, unemployments benefits are out of the question legally in his case as he never worked here. I don't know if you could qualify to other type of social help though, have no idea.
Yes, I missed reading about EU-countries.
In general I think you're completely right and that's how we're going to do that. My husband is not happy at all about giving up his job without having here anything. I hope learning English will not take ages.
Thanks!
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