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  #41  
Old 20.12.2015, 22:44
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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On the bright side, your Swiss assets are up about 20%. So it's looking ok so far...
Only cash..... pretty much everything else has fallen from Swiss Companies, Cars & probably housing.
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  #42  
Old 20.12.2015, 22:51
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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No I'd completely disagree. We use extensive near and offshoring and the primary issue is turnover and employee retention. In up and coming economies employees move at the drop of a hat for a better rate. It's one the main thing a that holds the countries back from truly competing with London, Geneva, Zurich etc
I completely agree with your experience except of the view that Manchester is an up and coming economy
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  #43  
Old 20.12.2015, 22:52
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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Are you saying Manchester is third world?
Ever been there?
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  #44  
Old 20.12.2015, 22:54
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Re: Salaries sinking?

could we stay on-topic please?
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  #45  
Old 20.12.2015, 22:56
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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could we stay on-topic please?
Staying on topic on page 3, that'd be a first...
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  #46  
Old 20.12.2015, 23:04
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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Google Switzerland is complaining about the high labor costs in Switzerland and difficulties to obtain work permits for new (non-EU) hires. Engineers cost 20-30% more in Zurich than in London and, due to this and the immigration issues, Google is expanding its London center:

https://translate.google.de/translat...322&edit-text=
From the friend in IT I know the salary charts on the job sites in Switzerland is not what they are actually offering, and the amounts are less than the UK.

On the flip side they are expanding IT development in France and want France to become THE IT hub, given the wages they are offering I can't see why good talent would work there vs London, Zurich etc. Munich has been doing a similar thing but their wages are quite good even compared to London.

Holland has been pushing their little tech bubble for a long time and get in huge number of expats, even with lower than avg salaries. Which is interesting given the higher rates in the UK, maybe easier for non EU to get a visa?

The rents vs wages thing on this side of the country is going to be a nightmare if the rents keep going up and the wages down.
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  #47  
Old 21.12.2015, 00:43
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Re: Salaries sinking?

I don't know about an IT hub in France, but isn't IBM closing down some of its operations in La Gaude and offshoring the jobs?

Mikers, the time shows OK here.
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Old 21.12.2015, 00:59
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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I don't know about an IT hub in France, but isn't IBM closing down some of its operations in La Gaude and offshoring the jobs?

Mikers, the time shows OK here.
no idea about IBM but Paris is advertising themselves as the "centre of europe" to the SF tech companies and trying to recruit people in, and in the south near Nice they have a tech park, another part of France has their eye on the tech capital of Europe award, big dreams that I doubt will ever come to fruition but I see the talk about it
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  #49  
Old 21.12.2015, 11:39
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Re: Salaries sinking?

Swiss Statistics:
Wages in Switzerland increased to 6209.28 CHF/Month in 2014 from 6160 CHF/Month in 2013. Wages in Switzerland averaged 5722.14 CHF/Month from 1998 until 2014, reaching an all time high of 6209.28 CHF/Month in 2014 and a record low of 5073 CHF/Month in 1998.

Meanwhile:
  • CHF has appreciated by 10%
  • Inflation for the past year -1.4%
  • SNB interest rate -0.75%
  • QoQ GDP growth at ground zero
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  #50  
Old 21.12.2015, 11:44
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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Paris is advertising themselves as the "centre of europe" to the SF tech companies
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  #51  
Old 21.12.2015, 12:15
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Re: Salaries sinking?

Hi all,

My experience: IT job, Master degree in Computer Science, EU citizen, same employer for the last 5 years, very little German language.

Considering current salary vs first salary, I'm at a total of 35% salary increase (I had also a promotion). Well over 120k.

I would say it depends on the job type...
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  #52  
Old 21.12.2015, 12:43
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Re: Salaries sinking?

Well Treverus, I think it's BS too but hey, that is what they where putting on their website. I can't find the exact link but lots of others with them promoting themselves to the IT world, esp to the SF IT market

Have a look at some of these

http://www.frenchtechticket.paris/5/why-paris

https://mystartup.paris.fr/en/its-be...san-francisco/

http://blog-frenchtechhub-prime.com/
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  #53  
Old 21.12.2015, 12:49
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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no idea about IBM but Paris is advertising themselves as the "centre of europe" to the SF tech companies and trying to recruit people in, and in the south near Nice they have a tech park, another part of France has their eye on the tech capital of Europe award, big dreams that I doubt will ever come to fruition but I see the talk about it
imagine a news paper header like "Silicon Valley on strike"
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  #54  
Old 21.12.2015, 12:54
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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imagine a news paper header like "Silicon Valley on strike"
I saw the adverts years ago and i was sitting there scratching my head to a lot of the BS. I mean yeah it's nice they will do things in English for the new people, but are they going to go get them a flat and do all that day to day stuff for them too?

Then if you look at salaries in Paris vs London, Maybe a job in London and the eurostar on weekends makes sense?

Depends on what you like. I know from living in France it is very difficult without French, and that doesn't pop up in any of these "please move your company to France" adverts.
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  #55  
Old 21.12.2015, 12:57
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Re: Salaries sinking?

I've been having this discussion many times at work and with friends and it's a very relevant topic in our business because we have management in Switzerland and the bulk of the business in Poland and the UK.

1. Switzerland seems more expensive than it really is all things considered, but it is expensive nevertheless. However when you need to attract good people and great talent, it's much easier to do it here than doing it in Nowhere, PL with a much lower salary. The Polish units are doing a good enough job, but I've seen in many instances managers wishing they could move the units to more central cities of PL just so they had bigger talent pools to select from.

2. It's not just about talent availability and attractiveness, but it's also about what is the company doing, what's its base, and what risk each operation/function is carrying. If you have an organisation doing really complex and demanding stuff, and they need to have as much control as possible over the operation, it will try to keep all the strategic parts close to the base of ops. So if the company is Swiss or it has EMEA HQs (quite frequent) then if you're part of the important bits of the business it's less likely to see your salary either decline or go away completely...


All people are replaceable for all positions, but some less than others, so in the end I guess I just try to make myself indispensable and if the employer can't see that, then either I'm not doing what I think I'm doing, so I need to do something better or the employer doesn't see it or doesn't care, so I need to find someone better.


Last but not least, in many occasions there is a lot of complacency in the CH job market. I don't things are getting tougher insomuch that they're just catching up with the reality of the rest of the world.


Of course compared to most people in here I'm a freaking noob talking out of his ass, so I might be completely wrong
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  #56  
Old 21.12.2015, 16:34
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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1. I think it's a myth that employees are so much more expensive in Switzerland. Yes, salaries are high, but social insurances, taxes and what not else are lower for employers than in any surrounding country. On top of that do they not face any of those pesky labor protection laws you can find in pretty much any country more developed than Bangladesh... so it is much easier to run a business and hire when you need to - because you know you can get rid of employees as soon as you cannot afford them anymore. Try that in Germany or let alone Italy.

2. That strong Swiss Franc argument... well: the CHF has been high for years, hasn't it? I think a lot of the companies downsizing find it much easier to blame the economy than their management...

3. I love the google story. "If we don't get the laws we want will we move all the jobs to London"... guess what: I've been to London recently and picked up some local newspapers. Want to know what the bosses there say? "If the people vote for a Brexit will 100k jobs be moved to places like Switzerland!"...

Long story short: I am currently applying for some jobs. Last time I did that in CH was about six years ago. Back then was the effect of the economic crisis in full swing and while jobs were well paid was it pretty impossible to get an interview... took me seven months to find something. This time round did people call back as soon as I applied - so there are way more jobs out there. So far can I say that the prices for IT contracting have taken a big hit, but permanent positions in Zurich seem to be roughly around the same numbers they were back then.
`

Very well said.

The Swiss Franc has been gaining value not just recently but for more than 10 years. In the same time, the unemployment has been one of the lowest in the developed world and the wages have been growing.

If "many people" have been experiencing layoffs and decreases in salaries (e.g. IT support areas), "many other people" must be experiencing the opposite, otherwise the economy as a whole would show higher unemployment and lower wages.
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  #57  
Old 21.12.2015, 16:52
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Re: Salaries sinking?

When I first went to live in London, calculations were easy - 10 CHF to the £! When we bought out house in 2007- about 2.50- then dropped to 1.18 for a while, back up to 1.45ish for last year, about 1.50 now.
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Old 22.12.2015, 14:09
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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I don't know about an IT hub in France, but isn't IBM closing down some of its operations in La Gaude and offshoring the jobs?

Mikers, the time shows OK here.
They have been doing that for the past 10 years or so. Last info I had - a few years old though - was that the LGE site was down to some 400 people out of the 3000+ in mid-2000s. Some were offered moves to Montpellier or Paris, others were offered positions abroad, but most technical jobs went to either Czech Republic (Brno) or Poland (Wroclaw). Limited offshoring in the true meaning of the word (India, Bangladesh, Indonesia etc), but mainly nearshoring.
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Old 22.12.2015, 14:10
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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no idea about IBM but Paris is advertising themselves as the "centre of europe" to the SF tech companies and trying to recruit people in, and in the south near Nice they have a tech park, another part of France has their eye on the tech capital of Europe award, big dreams that I doubt will ever come to fruition but I see the talk about it
I think you mean Sophia-Antipolis near Nice. It was started in the 60s and intended to be a European Silicon Valley, but hasn't ever gotten close to becoming one. The people I know in the area told me quite a few companies have been wrapping up in the past several years.
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Old 22.12.2015, 16:37
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Re: Salaries sinking?

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They have been doing that for the past 10 years or so. Last info I had - a few years old though - was that the LGE site was down to some 400 people out of the 3000+ in mid-2000s. Some were offered moves to Montpellier or Paris, others were offered positions abroad, but most technical jobs went to either Czech Republic (Brno) or Poland (Wroclaw). Limited offshoring in the true meaning of the word (India, Bangladesh, Indonesia etc), but mainly nearshoring.
My info is recent - a friend who lives in the area of that IT hub said that the housing market is flooded due to a recent downsize in IT jobs, and the local people have to cope with the problems this outflow has created.
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