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  #41  
Old 17.04.2016, 15:40
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

Here is an example of something that really annoys me with the big agencies. They continually tell you how great they are when you have subscribed to a list of available positions on any general job search site. When you are trailing through adverts for jobs, you want to see what a job is about not how much the agency thinks of itself.
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Old 21.04.2016, 01:20
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

i am looking a offices to apply some partime job but i dont know where i hope i can have some more information regarding or tipps to look for a job here in switzerland.
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  #43  
Old 21.04.2016, 09:37
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

To alleviate my boredom whilst looking at job ads, I decided to save some of the quotes. Someone else can do a Swiss German version if they are incredibly bored. Some of the things I see on adverts here I'm sure you wouldn't see in other countries. Others are just foibles. They like to use RED BOLD, requirements that can sound somewhat strange, lots of you must be Swiss & permit + long list of languages statements, working for free or for only a few weeks etc. I expect I will be adding to my funny file as the months go by.

I imagine they find someone square to fit the square hole & given the comments regarding job hunting on EF that each advert gets hundreds of applicants, there must be a lot of long armed, Swiss men under 40 who speak 3 or more languages who don't mind not being paid to work odd hours. So I wish all those who are triangular, good luck in finding the triangular hole.
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  #44  
Old 21.04.2016, 10:21
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

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To alleviate my boredom whilst looking at job ads, I decided to save some of the quotes. Someone else can do a Swiss German version if they are incredibly bored. Some of the things I see on adverts here I'm sure you wouldn't see in other countries. Others are just foibles. They like to use RED BOLD, requirements that can sound somewhat strange, lots of you must be Swiss & permit + long list of languages statements, working for free or for only a few weeks etc. I expect I will be adding to my funny file as the months go by.

I imagine they find someone square to fit the square hole & given the comments regarding job hunting on EF that each advert gets hundreds of applicants, there must be a lot of long armed, Swiss men under 40 who speak 3 or more languages who don't mind not being paid to work odd hours. So I wish all those who are triangular, good luck in finding the triangular hole.
I once saw an add (not in Switzerland) for a finance position where they wanted a candidate with a bachelor degree or higher (between the lines you could read a bachelor wasn't enough) from a high end institution, 10-15 years of experience and not older than 35 years old.

I thought it could prove a challenge to find enough 30-35 y.o. candidates with a master's and 10-15 years of experience, but maybe I really suck at math...

I didn't apply, as I didn't fit their profile and figured out that they weren't a right fit for me.
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  #45  
Old 21.04.2016, 11:18
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

OK, everything else failed ... Now, don't rewrite your CV and leave it as it is. Perfectly fine, except for one subtle thing. Just change your nationality to Swiss and see what happens. Check if this tiny experiment works (one way or the other) and you made it to the first round of interview at the table. Then apologize and tell everyone that you made a mistake on nationality ...
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Old 21.04.2016, 12:44
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

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The point of the thread should be how to avoid going to recruiters. Because people go to them them their network fails. Ok there are legitimate reasons for paying the recuiter a visit but not many...
The main reason people go through recruiters is essentially laziness, especially if they're working full time while looking.

As has been suggested recruiters are ultimately salespeople on commission and likely a lot of pressure to hit minimum targets. One could argue that spending time and effort on optimizing a candidate's application would improve their chances of closing a deal, but I suspect the volume approach (though enough s**t at a wall and some will stick) has better returns.

From a job seekers point of view, recruiters not only fail to improve your chances, but will actually make them worse more often than not. To begin with going through a recruiter means you go through a double cull process. Send your application to them and I found that one-in-five will make it to submission to the client, at which point one-in-five will actually get you an interview. Sent directly to the client and it's still one-in-five that will get an interview - the recruiter will not have improved your chances at all, and so with 25 applications, going through recruiters will likely see one interview, while going direct to the employer will see you land five.

Second disadvantage is that going via a recruiter makes you more expensive and this can make a difference, especially when you're down to the final round. I've had at least one occasion where I was told that they actually preferred me slightly, by the company, but this was not enough to overcome the 40k commission they'd have had to pay for me.

Either way, unless you're at a pretty high level in your game (where the number of candidates becomes much smaller and the commission much greater), recruiters won't put any effort in your application and so are best avoided if possible. Some ways of doing so are:
  • Don't apply through recruiters in the first place - a few sites even allow you to search for jobs with such a filter.
  • Grab some of the text in the job advert by a recruiter and Google it. Many recruiters just cut and paste whatever the company has sent them, so you'll probably find other recruiters trying to source candidates for the same role (also a good sign because it means that the company has no exclusive deal with the recruiter) and if lucky, you'll find the job advertised on the company Web site itself.
  • Search for companies in your sector and check out their site's careers section.
The recruiters here could probably suggest other ways of finding jobs directly (how do you think they find half of their clients?), but I suspect they're probably not going to...
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I once saw an add (not in Switzerland) for a finance position where they wanted a candidate with a bachelor degree or higher (between the lines you could read a bachelor wasn't enough) from a high end institution, 10-15 years of experience and not older than 35 years old.

I thought it could prove a challenge to find enough 30-35 y.o. candidates with a master's and 10-15 years of experience, but maybe I really suck at math...

I didn't apply, as I didn't fit their profile and figured out that they weren't a right fit for me.
Reminds me of an ad I saw many years ago looking for someone with two years experience in a technology that was new and had only been around six months.
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  #47  
Old 21.04.2016, 13:08
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

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The main reason people go through recruiters is essentially laziness
It also depends on the industry/specialisation. For more specific/technical jobs, where matching candidates' skills to openings is non-trivial, recruiters can add value. E.g. in finance or pharma.
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Old 21.04.2016, 15:08
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

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To alleviate my boredom whilst looking at job ads, I decided to save some of the quotes. Someone else can do a Swiss German version if they are incredibly bored. Some of the things I see on adverts here I'm sure you wouldn't see in other countries. Others are just foibles. They like to use RED BOLD, requirements that can sound somewhat strange, lots of you must be Swiss & permit + long list of languages statements, working for free or for only a few weeks etc. I expect I will be adding to my funny file as the months go by.

I imagine they find someone square to fit the square hole & given the comments regarding job hunting on EF that each advert gets hundreds of applicants, there must be a lot of long armed, Swiss men under 40 who speak 3 or more languages who don't mind not being paid to work odd hours. So I wish all those who are triangular, good luck in finding the triangular hole.


If you are looking for an IT contracting job in the low to mid range - have you tried jobserve.com ?
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  #49  
Old 21.04.2016, 17:02
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

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The main reason people go through recruiters is essentially laziness, especially if they're working full time while looking.
I had the "pleasure" to deal with plenty of them during my career so far and to cut it short:
- No recruiter "gets you a job". You don't pay him, he gets candidates for people who do.
- recruiters make great job interview practice partners as I highly recommend to not make that one interview that really counts your first one in years...
- only work with recruiters who have a mandate for a position. This means they get a fixed income for filling a job. All the others will be trying to sell your CV in the way used car dealers sell their cars... and that won't make you look good or get you a job. I have directly asked some before if they have a mandate and if the recruiter isn't giving you a convincing yes... walk away.
- I have found a job through a recruiter once and I think that's a niche worth mentioning: If you are only looking at MNCs is there little sense to go through a recruiter, you have a much higher chance to get the job directly as even the banks don't feel like paying some months of your future salary as a commission if they don't need to... however, a lot of small companies use niche recruiters to find them candidates proactively as they won't get good quality applications through the normal job boards. This is the actual "head hunting" and only works for experienced folks. If you are a graduate and some guy tells you he'd do the same for you: don't believe him.
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Old 21.04.2016, 17:59
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

If you think that age is a factor on your CV then remove it from the CV. Period!
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  #51  
Old 21.04.2016, 18:02
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If you think that age is a factor on your CV then remove it from the CV. Period!
And remove the dates that you did your primary degree too, or hope they think you were a child prodigy?

TBH, if they're going to rule you out on age, better they do so before you take the time to go for an interview.
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Old 21.04.2016, 18:27
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

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And remove the dates that you did your primary degree too, or hope they think you were a child prodigy?

TBH, if they're going to rule you out on age, better they do so before you take the time to go for an interview.
I don't put my info about primary and secondary school unless specifically asked for. I start the history from postgraduate studies and work experience.

If they ask me about my age, I'll answer it honestly. If the age is prerogative for the company so be it. Unless, I get a chance to be at the first round of interviews and despite the age requirement, I make a good overall first impression which may make them change their mind. You never know.

I have been told that there is hardly a candidate out there that will fulfill 100% of the job advert's requirements. Therefore, if you think that you fulfill some of them, why won't try?

I also don't think that going to interviews, however hopeless they might be, is waste of time because it enriches one's experience and gives one more clues about the market, what to improve in the next interviews, market expectations and what-what.
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  #53  
Old 21.04.2016, 18:28
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

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I had the "pleasure" to deal with plenty of them during my career so far and to cut it short:
- No recruiter "gets you a job". You don't pay him, he gets candidates for people who do.
- recruiters make great job interview practice partners as I highly recommend to not make that one interview that really counts your first one in years...
- only work with recruiters who have a mandate for a position. This means they get a fixed income for filling a job. All the others will be trying to sell your CV in the way used car dealers sell their cars... and that won't make you look good or get you a job. I have directly asked some before if they have a mandate and if the recruiter isn't giving you a convincing yes... walk away.
- I have found a job through a recruiter once and I think that's a niche worth mentioning: If you are only looking at MNCs is there little sense to go through a recruiter, you have a much higher chance to get the job directly as even the banks don't feel like paying some months of your future salary as a commission if they don't need to... however, a lot of small companies use niche recruiters to find them candidates proactively as they won't get good quality applications through the normal job boards. This is the actual "head hunting" and only works for experienced folks. If you are a graduate and some guy tells you he'd do the same for you: don't believe him.
Chance always has a finger in the game, doesn't it?

I'm not a big fan of recruiters, but the best job I ever had I got through one of them, and I didn't even know the job existed. I had newly moved to a new country and had zero network (as is the case now, I'm afraid), I applied for a position announced via recruiter and was called in for an interview.

During the interview the guy mentioned he had something that might suit my cv better. Within 2 weeks I started in working for a company I didn't know existed on a position I didn't know needed to be filled in before I came into contact with that recruiter.

Am starting a process with someone next week, more along the lines of coaching with some contact forwarding than recruiting, will keep you guys posted if it goes anywhere.
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  #54  
Old 21.04.2016, 18:36
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

The mathematical proof why the IT freelancer recruting business model doesn't work anymore in 2016:

x1, x2 = number of open positions
y1, y2 = number of recruiters
z1, z2 = number of candidates searching for jobs.


In 1999 we had x1 > y1 > z1


In 2016 we have x2 < y2 < z2 and x2 = x1/50, y2=y1*10, z2=z1*100


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Old 21.04.2016, 20:01
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

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I don't put my info about primary and secondary school unless specifically asked for. I start the history from postgraduate studies and work experience.
I said primary degree - last time I checked you don't get those from primary or secondary schools, and while it's common to leave out where you went to school, leaving out your higher qualifications (even your initial bachelors) is a bit of a dumb move.
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I also don't think that going to interviews, however hopeless they might be, is waste of time because it enriches one's experience and gives one more clues about the market, what to improve in the next interviews, market expectations and what-what.
Up to a point. Even there there's a diminishing rate of return - if you are getting many interviews in the first place, that is.
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Old 21.04.2016, 21:46
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

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I said primary degree - last time I checked you don't get those from primary or secondary schools, and while it's common to leave out where you went to school, leaving out your higher qualifications (even your initial bachelors) is a bit of a dumb move.
Up to a point. Even there there's a diminishing rate of return - if you are getting many interviews in the first place, that is.
Agreed. I realized that a tad too late that you talked about the primary degree instead of primary school.

IMO, the idea of leaving out the birthdate is not banal. During initial screening phase (those seconds or minutes), the recruiter might not be arsed to get into details about specific dates of your graduation. No that she/he is dumb and cannot count but his eyes simply didn't catch it yet. He will just be looking for key words that are more interesting. However it's nice to have your best picture pasted in there on which you look young to give her/him an overall idea. First looks, impressions always count (in those seconds). This much you could do in the initial phase of eliminating ...

In my case, holding both MSc and PhD degrees, I could lightly skip details of my BSc degree, me think. I just put in there as much of my industrial experience and interesting roles as possible. Achievements, major projects, cost reductions speak well about the candidate and etc. However, let's leave that for now until the recruiter will read my CV in detail later. So far so good, he's happy with my pic looking like 30+ although I'm already 40+ and no question asked about the age. Let's hope so.

Last but no least, I have no recipe for getting interviews. There are times I can be invited to few a month and there are times that null, zero "nada spaziert".

As my colleague who's familiar with recruiting processes summed it up: often times it's a matter of right positioning, timing and luck. Persevere and don't stop keep on applying because you may by chance miss that "short time frame" when sun will shine on you.
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  #57  
Old 22.04.2016, 09:24
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

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IMO, the idea of leaving out the birthdate is not banal.
I don't think it's banal, I just think it's pointless.

To begin with, things like primary degrees (which tend to take place between your late teens and early/mid twenties) make it too easy to work out a candidate's general age.

And ultimately if age is important to the culling process and you've no shortage of applications to choose from, then a missing date of birth is reason enough to bin the application.

I've gone through CVs for new hires in the past, and you spot such omissions/details immediately. Indeed, where a date of birth is missing, you spot its absence straight away and it does give the impression that the candidate is hiding something for some reason, even if age is not an issue for you - it almost makes it an issue.
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As my colleague who's familiar with recruiting processes summed it up: often times it's a matter of right positioning, timing and luck. Persevere and don't stop keep on applying because you may by chance miss that "short time frame" when sun will shine on you.
While I do believe that there are some simple things that one can do to improve one's chances (applying directly to companies, modifying your CV to highlight what they're looking for, having a readable CV, etc), I'd agree; it comes down to applying for the right job, in the right place and at the right time.
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Old 22.04.2016, 12:47
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

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This is the part that I understand the least because 90% of the positions I apply for all require skills listed on my CV and yet I get the same BS automated replies.

With a profession like a Mechaniker where they ask for machine maintenance experience as well as hydraulics, pneumatics and fault finding which are all listed on my CV - what am I missing in the keyword scanning process? http://www.englishforum.ch/images/smilies/confused.gif
You might be missing the local qualifications? Such as mechaniker EFZ.
I think the best way to find out is to find a swiss mechaniker and ask!
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Old 22.04.2016, 14:12
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

Alot of good advice given here, key take ways 1. use a recruiter who has Mandate. 2. Key an active Network thus avoiding use for a recruiter.


So over the 6 years i've been in CH, i've Switch Jobs 5 times, 3 with recruiters 2 on my own. Progressively, I did the last 2 Job findings on my own, all Jobs were for permanant fixed-Budget Jobs. All of my moves have been for career advancement opportunity.


Top Level advice, use a recruiter only when you've exhausted any Access from a Network Point of View. Use a recruiter as a very last step before applying to an on-line data-base where your CV will go in a hole. Actually, if you get to the last step of applying through a Company on-line data-base without talking to HR at a Minimum, then just apply by putting your CV into a garbage can. Its no difference. Generally speaking, there are exceptions (as I have infact experienced, but that's a risk you will need to take).


My experiences with recruiters have been hit and miss and i've learned alot. If one decides to use a recuriter they should be heavily vetted. As the title of the post suggest, the majority are not in your interest - rather they tend to use "candidates" to expand their Network, i.e. referrals. In other words, you do thier Job for them. In 90% of the case, this was my experience. Then there are the 10% who are jewels. The ones who will bat for you. In General, These are the ones with Mandate or contract by the employer to work exclusively to fill a Position or they have direct relationship with hiring Manager and HR that is palpible, i.e they have placed in the Company routinely (rare). These are ones you want to work with. And by this i mean the person, not the agency. You will see that many agencies the recruiters turn around can be on the order of weeks to months, next thing you know you get repeated phone calls from the same agency - but different Person. Avoid These agencies!!


Also, before choosing a recruiter, know that in CH, your dossier or CV is "owned" by that recruiter for up to a year at a Minimum at the targeted employer. That means, you apply for a Position at an organization of interest via a recruiter and your CV is presented to HR, if you do not get the Job, then any other Position you may apply for organization would be subject to that recruiter getting a Finders fee, if you get the Position. So basically, you're 1. blocked by using other recruiters and 2. blocked from a direct hire opportunity, via a Network, or direct Company application etc. in a legal context unless the Company still wants to pay for your hire. This is why a recruiter will ask in an Initial interview if you had applied before and if so, when. I've posted on this before. Same goes with applying to an on-line data-base right? you apply there, you Close yourself to using a recruiter, it the event you find that 10% jewel.


Given the issue with recruiters and the cost of Finders fee, many HR departs are trying to reduce a cost of a hire by not using an external recruiter (i.e. the ones that are call you up). What many are doing to day is they are hiring thier own internal Talent Sourcing staff or the are hiring an agency (so called RPO for Recruitment Procurement Organization) to recruit on thier behalf, These two approaches will generally mean the "recruiter" or "Talent Scout" will have an email address of the Company they are working for, i.e. @ABB or @Roche if those are your target companies. In today's world, These are the People you want to target on Linkedin. Find the Talent Scouts that are linked to the Company. Many of the internal Talent Scouts are former recruiters anyways and they were sourced from These agencies, they are using the same tactics - many are proactivley reaching out instead of waiting for applications. This was the case with the 1 of my last two Jobs, (when i stopped using them external recruiters). And my current Company they just don't use recruiters, they are actively using Linkedin and their Networks to find candidates that suit the Job Profile.


So, in General, avoid recruiters with the exceptions noted above - also find the Talent Scouts/Recruiters that work for the Company on Linkedin. Start having a Dialog with them first (in the Absence of a Network).


As for CVs, which is out of scope but I'll give Brief mention, i never bothered to adapt to any Swiss Format, Keep the American Approach (i.e. sell my value; couldn't be bothered with putting a photo, cause I'm quite ugly anyways and my photo would lead to my CV being put in a garbage pile).


Good luck
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Old 23.04.2016, 15:49
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Re: Recruiters that actually help job seekers

Great tread, a bit disconcerting for me. After reading all the posts I have dug a big hole and dropped all my hopes in it. I just did not start to cover it yet ...

Thanks to all the posters for these inside info hard to find from far away. At the moment looks to be pretty hard to make a move to Switzerland, the job market being so hard to access even by extremely well trained and experienced people.
Good luck to everyone!
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