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  #41  
Old 10.02.2016, 12:30
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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True, but even a full-time cleaner earning 30.- per hour (I've no idea what the going rate is) would earn more than 5k per month.
No, he/she wouldn't. 4k is an entry level salary for office personnel right after the internship. OP definitely gets low-balled but as mentioned before, at least he would have a foot in the country and could look for a better paying job.
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  #42  
Old 10.02.2016, 12:30
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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I thought that in marketing departments everyone who doesn't manage people is called "executive"... I questioned the practice once and was told that they are the people who "execute what the manager told them to"!
Thanks! Genius, I'm going to update my Linked in with "executive"
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  #43  
Old 10.02.2016, 12:32
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

4,000 CHF p.m. for a marketing professional, presumably with a third level education / qualification and three years experience under their belt is derisory.

Doesn't matter if you can survive on it, it's still derisory for someone with experience and who went through the trouble and expense of further education. Simple as that.

However, the question is, why is this job attractive? Is it in the area you wish to cut yourself a niche? Will it fast track your career? Is it you primarily want to live in Switzerland? Because if your primary motivation is money, you're taking a step back.

And with €2,000 net at present in Belgium, moving to 4,000 CHF gross in Switzerland (your Quellensteuer and health insurance will cost you a further 250 - 600 CHF p.m.) will see your standard of living (and saving) drop from what it is at present.

You could see it as a stepping stone - a crappy job that gets you the B permit, where you can trade up in six months or a year, but that's a risky plan - hopping jobs, especially if you don't speak the lingo - is not as easy to do as once upon a time.

My gut feeling, unless you really want to come to CH, is that I'd pass if I were you. Something better will come up, and if it doesn't then you're probably better off staying where you are or trying elsewhere. Also, from experience, if employers are trying to pull you over the table on salary from the start, it's more than likely that they'll screw you over some other way before long.
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  #44  
Old 10.02.2016, 12:37
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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And with €2,000 net at present in Belgium, moving to 4,000 CHF gross in Switzerland (your Quellensteuer and health insurance will cost you a further 250 - 600 CHF p.m.) will see your standard of living (and saving) drop from what it is at present.
The OP is talking about 4000 NET though (60K gross). It isn't a great salary, but it is ok for a single person, and not a cut in standard of living. We (family of four) currently live on that kind of money, although not in the city of Zurich.
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  #45  
Old 10.02.2016, 12:39
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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And with €2,000 net at present in Belgium, moving to 4,000 CHF gross in Switzerland
Actually it's CHF 5,000 gross (see OP). CHF 60K pa.
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  #46  
Old 10.02.2016, 12:50
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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The OP is talking about 4000 NET though (60K gross). It isn't a great salary, but it is ok for a single person, and not a cut in standard of living. We (family of four) currently live on that kind of money, although not in the city of Zurich.
Which could endanger "long term stay" especially if touching any benefits...(cf the naturalization or even the obtention of C permis for these unable to support themselves financially).
Or also, you have severe deductions due to the 2 kids (which is not massive amount but it does add a few thousands chfs at the end of the year).

But yes it's "doable". And someone can certainly enjoy living a different lifestyle with less money.
The problems will start when the unexpected occurs (dentist,car issue, small damages to rented property, Franchise for the doctor, etc...).
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  #47  
Old 10.02.2016, 12:56
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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Or also, you have severe deductions due to the 2 kids (which is not massive amount but it does add a few thousands chfs at the end of the year).
There is not much to deduct as you don't pay much taxes in the first place on that salary... I know cause I have been there.

The OP already said that he is expecting and ok with a frugal life style- shared apartment and no car. With these parameters is it imho more than doable. I lived with two people for a time on this money... I sure was happy when I got more, but there is no reason why the OP wouldn't as well after some time.
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  #48  
Old 10.02.2016, 12:58
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

Not meaning to be disrespectful, but an actual executive would have much more work experience and earn more, in either Belgium and Switzerland. Titles are misleading. As are diplomas and certificates. Neither says anything about the actual qualification or job content.

3 years of experience is entry-level in many companies and the salary is acceptable for what is probably more of a marketing specialist (Sachbearbeiter) than an executive. And it is certainly enough for a single guy with no kids. He will walk out with much more than 4k net as taxes (especially source taxes) are very low on that salary. Living on some 4300-4500/month is absolutely fine and he definitely won't have to live very frugal on it either. 2500 for all fixed costs incl apartment and health insurance, still leaves 2k a month for everything else, that is plenty, even though it seems difficult to understand for some. I earn much more and swear that I never spend more than 2k a month on food, going out, clothes, gas, etc.

Again, this ain't the land of milk and honey and I don't understand why everybody assumes that you will automatically get rich and have a luxurious lifestyle just because you moved to Switzerland. In case you haven't heard, not every Swiss has a basement full of gold and certainly no waiter, salesperson or car mechanic will make a lot of money here.

And no, an untrained Migros employee hardly earns that same salary. A hairdresser earns some 46k, a Migros salesperson maybe some 48k. Often with years of experience (more than three) AND even though they've learned the respective trade.

Some perspective would help here. 150k for just about anyone IS NOT REALITY!!
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  #49  
Old 10.02.2016, 13:03
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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Not meaning to be disrespectful, but an actual executive would have much more work experience and earn more, in either Belgium and Switzerland. Titles are misleading. As are diplomas and certificates. Neither says anything about the actual qualification or job content.

3 years of experience is entry-level in many companies and the salary is acceptable for what is probably more of a marketing specialist (Sachbearbeiter) than an executive. And it is certainly enough for a single guy with no kids. He will walk out with much more than 4k net as taxes (especially source taxes) are very low on that salary. Living on some 4300-4500/month is absolutely fine and he definitely won't have to live very frugal on it either. 2500 for all fixed costs incl apartment and health insurance, still leaves 2k a month for everything else, that is plenty, even though it seems difficult to understand for some. I earn much more and swear that I never spend more than 2k a month on food, going out, clothes, gas, etc.

Again, this ain't the land of milk and honey and I don't understand why everybody assumes that you will automatically get rich and have a luxurious lifestyle just because you moved to Switzerland. In case you haven't heard, not every Swiss has a basement full of gold and certainly no waiter, salesperson or car mechanic will make a lot of money here.

And no, an untrained Migros employee hardly earns that same salary. A hairdresser earns some 46k, a Migros salesperson maybe some 48k. Often with years of experience (more than three) AND even though they've learned the respective trade.

Some perspective would help here. 150k for just about anyone IS NOT REALITY!!
Lay off the coffee, will ya:

http://www.unia.ch/de/aktuell/aktuell/artikel/a/10340/
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  #50  
Old 10.02.2016, 13:09
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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no waiter, salesperson or car mechanic will make a lot of money here.
While the waiter doesn't want to serve you, the salesperson doesn't want to serve you, the car mechanic however will milk you dry given the opportunity (so you never go back)



If the OP has 2k net in Belgium and spends 1500, he has 500 left.
If he earns say 3500 euro net in CH and spends 3000 he has 500 left.
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  #51  
Old 10.02.2016, 13:13
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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There is not much to deduct as you don't pay much taxes in the first place on that salary... I know cause I have been there.

The OP already said that he is expecting and ok with a frugal life style- shared apartment and no car. With these parameters is it imho more than doable. I lived with two people for a time on this money... I sure was happy when I got more, but there is no reason why the OP wouldn't as well after some time.
Ok "deductions" was a bad wording, I should have said that the person, in her situation, pay less income tax and therefore has more money and therefore can not compare the situation.

As an illustration, which I hope to be accurate, taken from "withdrawal tax" (a la source) in Vaud for 2016:

61'201 à 61'800 Single person, alone 11.60% tax

61'201 à 61'800 Married 2 childs 1.86% tax

So the tax rate, the amount to pay on the same yearly income is significantly different. It seems a lot so maybe I screw the numbers but anyway, even if the difference would be 5% (fake example) it will be 3000chf difference.
Yes it won't go far with 2 kids, but it's still something relatively significant.


So the point is that the comparison should be highly moderated, if not avoided. Especially with Zurich rents vs somewhere else, quite sensible on that low income!
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  #52  
Old 10.02.2016, 13:25
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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Ok, simply put: you will earn about as much as a shopkeeper. Unlike in other countries is there nothing wrong with that in Switzerland as the "low" jobs pay really well. Most people on this website came here with good contracts and more work experience than you... So many seem to overestimate entry level salaries. After graduation did I earn less than your offer and within the first 18 months got two raises that brought me a bit higher than 60k. With 3 years experience is your offer a bit low but acceptable. I don't think you will gain a lot in purchasing power compared to Belgium, but that depends on what you spend your money on: if you like to go to pubs and restaurants will you actually lose power, if you buy a lot of electronics will you gain.

The biggest difference to Belgium is the potential to score a MUCH better paid job down the road.
Interesting. Basically the difference bewteen an "entry job" and low skilled job is not much, but down the road you can makr huge raises.
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  #53  
Old 10.02.2016, 13:27
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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Not meaning to be disrespectful, but an actual executive would have much more work experience and earn more, in either Belgium and Switzerland. Titles are misleading. As are diplomas and certificates. Neither says anything about the actual qualification or job content.

3 years of experience is entry-level in many companies and the salary is acceptable for what is probably more of a marketing specialist (Sachbearbeiter) than an executive. And it is certainly enough for a single guy with no kids. He will walk out with much more than 4k net as taxes (especially source taxes) are very low on that salary. Living on some 4300-4500/month is absolutely fine and he definitely won't have to live very frugal on it either. 2500 for all fixed costs incl apartment and health insurance, still leaves 2k a month for everything else, that is plenty, even though it seems difficult to understand for some. I earn much more and swear that I never spend more than 2k a month on food, going out, clothes, gas, etc.

Again, this ain't the land of milk and honey and I don't understand why everybody assumes that you will automatically get rich and have a luxurious lifestyle just because you moved to Switzerland. In case you haven't heard, not every Swiss has a basement full of gold and certainly no waiter, salesperson or car mechanic will make a lot of money here.

And no, an untrained Migros employee hardly earns that same salary. A hairdresser earns some 46k, a Migros salesperson maybe some 48k. Often with years of experience (more than three) AND even though they've learned the respective trade.

Some perspective would help here. 150k for just about anyone IS NOT REALITY!!
Sorry, but what a load of twaddle... just because we say 60k isn't a good salary for a 28 year old marketing person with 3 years of experience, you then proceed to give us the tired old spiel about how not every one is rich and not everyone earns 150k? Ugh.

Many of us here know people who work in these positions and industries, and many of us have worked in companies with multiple large departments who know the going rate for types of jobs in CH.

Do you have this direct experience or contact with such people, or are you just using the thread as an excuse to get on your soap box?
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  #54  
Old 10.02.2016, 13:27
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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Interesting. Basically the difference bewteen an "entry job" and low skilled job is not much, but down the road you can makr huge raises.
In one word: yes! You could make more money than your current offer in really hard labour jobs nobody wants to do (and are therefore well paid)... But they lack the career path.
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Old 10.02.2016, 13:30
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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You will not live well on that salary in Zürich... I would probably rather be in Lisbon for 1500EUR per month as your money will go a lot further. Your company are trying to seriously under pay you considering you have 3 years of experience.



I was on 68k when I arrived here in IT and I was low-balled by my English managers. 60k is a very bad salary when you think that it is what unskilled supermarket workers earn.

I would be re-negotiating hard and aiming for 80k, as his company are clearly trying to screw him...
Good to know. It's indeed a bit weird that a store employee makes around the same as someone with a degree.

I don't find 1500€ in Lisbon a lot eithet, so if you rather take that, it says alot.
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Old 10.02.2016, 13:30
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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Sorry, but what a load of abject twaddle... just because we say 60k isn't a good salary for a 28 year old marketing person with 3 years of experience, you then proceed to give us the tired old spiel about how not every one is rich and not everyone earns 150k? Ugh.

Many of us here know people who work in these industries, and many of us have worked in companies with multiple large departments who know the going rate for types of jobs in CH.

Do you, or are you just using the thread to get on your soap box?
So: have you worked in marketing? I have and imho is the entry level between 5-6 k. With 3 years experience should the op get a little more but the offer is not more than 10-15% off from what I have seen... And that was in Zurich where the salaries were better than say Basel or bern to offset the living costs.
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Old 10.02.2016, 13:33
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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A good point.

OP, there is little point in benchmarking your salary against other fields, and certainly not against un- or low- skilled labor.

As Treverus points out, Switzerland's labor market is different from other countries in that wages are quite a bit higher at the lower end - but as you go up the ladder wages do not necessarily scale up in the same way they do in other countries. You can't think 'If a grocery cashier makes X, as a degreed professional I should make X times Y'. The Swiss wage differential tends to flatten out as you go up to a certain point on the skills ladder.

The only benchmark that makes any sense is the market rate in your field, with your experience.

All the best with your decision...
Good advice.
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Old 10.02.2016, 13:37
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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Good to know. It's indeed a bit weird that a store employee makes around the same as someone with a degree.

I don't find 1500€ in Lisbon a lot eithet, so if you rather take that, it says alot.
Mhmm ok maybe not Lisbon, if I really think about it, the career prospects are probably not great there. You can of course live in CH on 4000chf net, but the question is how long will they keep you at this salary, and what effect will accepting such a low salary have on your future raises? If you start so low then your earning potential within the same company will likely suffer as a result, and the only way you make a meaningful jump would possibly be getting a new job after a certain amount of time.

I would really try and negotiate with them and try and secure a minimum of 70k, preferably 75k.

As a guide, 60-70k (depending on company) is a starting salary for an IT support role with little to no experience, and 80k is a starting salary for a graduate with no experience at one of the big 4. I also know several people who working in marketing, and the least of these had only a year or two of experience and started her new job on circa 75k and it was a relatively small company.

Trust me, you are being low-balled with that offer.

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So: have you worked in marketing? I have and imho is the entry level between 5-6 k. With 3 years experience should the op get a little more but the offer is not more than 10-15% off from what I have seen... And that was in Zurich where the salaries were better than say Basel or bern to offset the living costs.
I have not personally worked in marketing but have had good contact with friends in marketing departments in several companies large and small and I know their salaries.

I would not accept less than 70-75k with 3 years of experience... 60k is a joke and he would almost certainly be paid less than his peers.

Last edited by Richdog; 10.02.2016 at 13:52.
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Old 10.02.2016, 13:42
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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In one word: yes! You could make more money than your current offer in really hard labour jobs nobody wants to do (and are therefore well paid)... But they lack the career path.
So it's good for unskilled workers who come from EU Countries like Spain, Portugal, Greece and Hungary.
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Old 10.02.2016, 13:49
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Re: Is 4000 CHF a good salary // Belgium equivalent

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Mhmm ok maybe not Lisbon, if I really think about it, the career prospects are probably not great there. You can of course live in CH on 4000chf net, but the question is how long will they keep you at this salary, and what effect will accepting such a low salary have on your future raises? If you start so low then your earning potential within the same company will likely suffer as a result, and the only way you make a meaningful jump would possibly be getting a new job after a certain amount of time.

I would really try and negotiate with them and try and secure a minimum of 70k, preferably 75k.

As a guide, 65-70k is a starting salary for an IT support guy with no experience, and 80k is a starting salary for a graduate with no experience at one of the big 4. I also know several people who working in marketing, and the least of these had only a year or two of experience and started her new job on circa 75k and it was a relatively small company.

Trust me, you are being low-balled with that offer.



I have not personally worked in marketing but have had good contact with friends in marketing departments in several companies large and small and I know their salaries.

I would not accept less than 70-75k with 3 years of experience... 60k is a joke and he would almost certainly be paid less than his peers.

Thanks for your opinion.
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