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  #21  
Old 07.06.2016, 17:35
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Re: Frequent job change

Maybe it is not as bad as I explained. I am just over thirty, I have 2 experiences for about 3 years and one for 2 years.

I had a period of 2 years in which I constantly changed job for health reason. I had an accident and needed surgery twice during this period. So, basically I accepted short term contract from temp agencies and then went back to health benefits.

The position I was offered seems way more exciting. Money comes actually second in my decision. But yeah. I fear that if things do not go well there, I might be red listed by all employers...
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Old 07.06.2016, 18:36
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Re: Frequent job change

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Maybe it is not as bad as I explained. I am just over thirty, I have 2 experiences for about 3 years and one for 2 years.

I had a period of 2 years in which I constantly changed job for health reason. I had an accident and needed surgery twice during this period. So, basically I accepted short term contract from temp agencies and then went back to health benefits.

The position I was offered seems way more exciting. Money comes actually second in my decision. But yeah. I fear that if things do not go well there, I might be red listed by all employers...


That's an entirely different story then. While people try to avoid mentioning health issues - in this case make sure this context comes across in your CV. Taking on short term jobs between surgery is in my eyes the opposite of a liability! You clearly want to work... any employer will like this.
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  #23  
Old 07.06.2016, 21:14
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Re: Frequent job change

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Unless you were mobbed, or had medical reasons, anything shorter than 5 years is frowned upon, you are expected to slog it out until something better arrives within the company. Ask your colleagues, you might find the average is somewhere near 7 years!
In 27 years working in the IT industry in Switzerland, I have never yet heard of job hopping as a reason not to hire someone. And I have probably recruited about 20 people for 6 companies over that period.
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Old 07.06.2016, 21:34
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Re: Frequent job change

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Unless you were mobbed, or had medical reasons, anything shorter than 5 years is frowned upon, you are expected to slog it out until something better arrives within the company. Ask your colleagues, you might find the average is somewhere near 7 years!
What a load of absolute shit.
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Old 07.06.2016, 23:45
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Re: Frequent job change

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Unless you were mobbed, or had medical reasons, anything shorter than 5 years is frowned upon, you are expected to slog it out until something better arrives within the company. Ask your colleagues, you might find the average is somewhere near 7 years!
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What a load of absolute shit.
Although I wouldn't consider richdogs reply qualified either I do understand his/her outburst. Sbrinz, that is a complete fairy tale you told here and I find it very unfair/irresponsible to tell an OP such nonsense.

Hmmmm, I guess I only put richdogs words into a more diplomatic phrase
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Old 08.06.2016, 08:10
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Re: Frequent job change

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Although I wouldn't consider richdogs reply qualified either I do understand his/her outburst. Sbrinz, that is a complete fairy tale you told here and I find it very unfair/irresponsible to tell an OP such nonsense.

Hmmmm, I guess I only put richdogs words into a more diplomatic phrase
Sometime you just have to tell it as it is.
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Old 08.06.2016, 09:27
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Re: Frequent job change

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Although I wouldn't consider richdogs reply qualified either I do understand his/her outburst. Sbrinz, that is a complete fairy tale you told here and I find it very unfair/irresponsible to tell an OP such nonsense.

Hmmmm, I guess I only put richdogs words into a more diplomatic phrase
Funny enough. Where I am working now, everybody has been working there for over ten years, some of them 20-25... But it is an exclusively Swiss environment. I am the only non-Swiss in the whole department (circa 70p). This is also one of the reason why I am thinking to leave. I find it hard to cope with the work mentality.
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Old 08.06.2016, 10:46
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Re: Frequent job change

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Although I wouldn't consider richdogs reply qualified either I do understand his/her outburst. Sbrinz, that is a complete fairy tale you told here and I find it very unfair/irresponsible to tell an OP such nonsense.

Hmmmm, I guess I only put richdogs words into a more diplomatic phrase
I am sorry you don't like my response, it isn't irresponsible, very much the contrary.

There is no point at all in telling someone life is rosy here, and let them find out 5 years later they should have taken that internal job. Swiss companies do like people to remain, and gather experience by moving within the company. I worked here 15 years in CAD Engineering customer service and I had customers in SBB, all the pharmaceutical companies, all the chemical companies, many towns and canton offices, which I visited regularly. I also worked for Swisscom IT in Bern for two years, & then retired age 67. That is my opinion gained over 20 years working in a wide variety of industries.

I was also unemployed for 3 years covering Bern, Fribourg, Waadt and Geneva, so I also met qualified people seeking work, and attended workshops on how to get a job.

Maybe you have other experiences, but these are mine, and job hopping with less than 3 years experience can really count against you. You can stay with the company and move within departments, that shows loyalty, but leaving for a SFr 1'000 pay rise is considered to be a weak characteristic.
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Old 08.06.2016, 11:55
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Re: Frequent job change

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I am sorry you don't like my response, it isn't irresponsible, very much the contrary.

There is no point at all in telling someone life is rosy here, and let them find out 5 years later they should have taken that internal job. Swiss companies do like people to remain, and gather experience by moving within the company. I worked here 15 years in CAD Engineering customer service and I had customers in SBB, all the pharmaceutical companies, all the chemical companies, many towns and canton offices, which I visited regularly. I also worked for Swisscom IT in Bern for two years, & then retired age 67. That is my opinion gained over 20 years working in a wide variety of industries.

I was also unemployed for 3 years covering Bern, Fribourg, Waadt and Geneva, so I also met qualified people seeking work, and attended workshops on how to get a job.

Maybe you have other experiences, but these are mine, and job hopping with less than 3 years experience can really count against you. You can stay with the company and move within departments, that shows loyalty, but leaving for a SFr 1'000 pay rise is considered to be a weak characteristic.
Times have changed, and continue to do so.
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Old 08.06.2016, 12:05
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Re: Frequent job change

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Maybe it is not as bad as I explained. I am just over thirty, I have 2 experiences for about 3 years and one for 2 years.

I had a period of 2 years in which I constantly changed job for health reason. I had an accident and needed surgery twice during this period. So, basically I accepted short term contract from temp agencies and then went back to health benefits.

The position I was offered seems way more exciting. Money comes actually second in my decision. But yeah. I fear that if things do not go well there, I might be red listed by all employers...
As said earlier: Go for it

Times do have changed.
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Old 08.06.2016, 12:07
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Re: Frequent job change

I talk to one experienced professional, they tell me "if you hop jobs you don't show commitment". Gives an arbitrary number of years/months/days/hours/whatevers

I talk to another experienced professional, they tell me "if you're not moving around, you don't show ambition". Gives an arbitrary number of years/months/days/hours/whatevers.

All the advice comes from people that have worked 10-35 years or whatever and from the same industries for most expats/immigrants.
The very experienced guy is very experienced (no sh!t, right?) but probably things change much faster than they did 20 years ago, so even experiences from 2005 or even 2010 might not hold to be very true anymore.
The younger guy is more into the current things, but lacks a significant data set (i.e. experience). So the fact that he understands trends and some behaviours now doesn't mean good overall advice because some things are quite "steady-state".

All the while you're a young professional taking first steps, maybe wanting to try 1-2 industries with an internship and a grad programme, and you just feel completely f*ing lost.




So once again when it comes to employment it's all "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

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  #32  
Old 08.06.2016, 12:18
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Re: Frequent job change

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So once again when it comes to employment it's all "damned if you do, damned if you don't".
I see it more of an oldschool vs newschool issue: My dad worked his entire life for two companies - one before going to university and one for the 40 years between graduation and retirement. In his generation was a job change something very serious - either did the company go bust or there must be something to worry about in regards of the candidate... back then were only people fired who screwed up massively. If they were simply not very good at their jobs were they carried on as dead wood (but left out for the promotions which were usually based on your age and years with the company...). Sbrinz is age-wise closer to my dad than he is to me and this is simply his reality.


I on the other hand had the "pleasure" to make my first professional experience just about the time the "internet bubble" burst. Then came some decent 5-7 years and then came the financial crisis. I am not even in the middle of my work-life and I have worked for six companies so far... because that's how life works now: We got used to the fact that large companies at times fire entire business units. If everyone in the building has to go... can it hardly be your personal fault or in any way be connected to your individual performance. So my attitude to work has greatly shifted from the way my dad sees things... I am for example far less loyal to an employer than he was - for the simple reason that I have experienced employers being far less loyal to me than they were to my dad.


So really: Yes, if the hiring manager is in his early 60s will you have some discussions... but anyone under 45 has been in the same boat and made the same experiences by now. I still think people should avoid changes that are below a year... but everything over 2 years is fair game.
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  #33  
Old 08.06.2016, 12:25
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Re: Frequent job change

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There is a huge difference: You signed contracts with specific terms - an employer offering you a 12 month contract expects you to stay for... 12 months. But if an employer hires a permanent employee does he typically invest quite a bit more time into him than he'd into you. If I hire a contractor do I expect him to add value from the day he starts... a permanent role might take some months to get somebody briefed and up to speed... because they tend to have a different set of responsibilities.


To the OP: Simply put... imagine to be a team manager. Would you hire yourself? I accept that people move on between 2-3 years on a job. Occasionally earlier. But repeatedly not even complete a full year? Sorry, not interested.
Some roles I interview people for will require 2-3 years for them to get up to speed. So someone leaving before then will just be a waste of time and money.
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  #34  
Old 08.06.2016, 12:27
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Re: Frequent job change

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Some roles I interview people for will require 2-3 years for them to get up to speed. So someone leaving before then will just be a waste of time and money.
Agreed. Then give them some reason to stay...
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Old 08.06.2016, 12:29
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Re: Frequent job change

And the attitude of the employers has also changed a lot over the years. I believe Loyalty has no value these days. Companies fire people when they think you are no longer needed or the role can be outsourced or they expect you to take up new roles which you are not interested in. It looks like companies taking care of the welfare of the people is a thing of past.


so job hopping should not be a big problem and need not be a black mark on your CV as long as you have a valid reason for it and doing it for a higher salary is not a valid reason. it makes sense when you are younger but after a while money comes only second or even third. what is more important is how much you like the job, how good is your team and how well you integrate into the team. if all these things are good, then money does not have a big role in the job.


cheers
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Last edited by HappyCreature; 08.06.2016 at 12:29. Reason: correct typo error
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Old 08.06.2016, 12:31
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Re: Frequent job change

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If everyone in the building has to go... can it hardly be your personal fault or in any way be connected to your individual performance.
Well, I would not include such a move against anyone, nor would most other people.

I think where job-hopping hurts you is if you voluntarily move for no good reason (in the eyes of the new employer) or for reasons which may arise during your new employment (e.g. only for more money).

Also if you move because you are fired or forced out due to: incompetence, being difficult to work with etc.
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Old 08.06.2016, 12:33
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Re: Frequent job change

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I see it more of an oldschool vs newschool issue
That's because it is. However, Switzerland, like most of continental Europe is still somewhat old school and so things like job hopping will be frowned upon more than they might be in the UK or US. The same can be said for hands on experience versus academic titles; if you have 15 years experience in a role but no degree, no one will care in the US or UK, here it can still be an issue.

Given this, things are changing and such measures of a candidate have become far less important. The culture of the industry matters too, with some industries placing less importance on longevity of service than others. And whether the company is a multinational or a family owned, Swiss one will play a part.

Long and the short of it is every opinion and experience here is correct, because all of them happen, however job-hopping will tend to be more important on average here than in a new school nation. How important in any specific case though depends on all the other factors I've mentioned too. And luck.
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Old 08.06.2016, 12:44
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Re: Frequent job change

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Times have changed, and continue to do so.
In the old days you'd do your apprenticeship in a company and stay there until you're retired. But those times were even before my parents! Except one uncle who worked all his life in one company yet the company kept changing from Ciba to Ciba-Geigy to Novartis .... maybe that kept it interesting for him

I have a very unruly cv, not only in amount of jobs but also profound changes of professions and had only one job in it where I stayed 8 years. One time I showed up to an interview and HR said to me: "I saw your cv and I just had to meet you". LOL. A boring cv does not get you the interesting jobs. The outrageously high payed ones maybe but I'm not even sure about that.

My last job I stayed on for 12 years and even though I loved it and I've been active and innovative from the first minute to the last the always same enviroemnt of staff who have been there 20 ... 25 .... 30 years drains ones flow of energy more than the actual job does. When I realized that, I bolted.

You follow your interests - and therefore change jobs - you keep being an interesting person. Companies don't want routine people who like to be glued to their chairs and wait for opportunities to be handed to them, I know that from experience.

PS: The OP didn't get an internal offer so why is Sbrinz telling him to wait for that? What's the saying? "Hope is not a strategy".
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Old 08.06.2016, 12:58
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Re: Frequent job change

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Times have changed, and continue to do so.
But as we all know, times in Switzerland change a bit more slowly than elsewhere (says a Swiss )

As said, I don't fully agree with Sbrinz either, but some points are valid. Yes of course these days people tend to change jobs and companies more frequently (voluntarily or not), BUT I very much disagree that there is no value in loyalty anymore. There still is - ironically enough, but don't get me started... Yes the call for loyalty may be lipservice rather than anything else in the big multinationals, but I don't think it's entirely lost meaning and importance for smaller/mid-sized and/or local companies, especially in ever-conservative Switzerland. So maybe one aspect to consider is the kind of company we're referring to here.

For years, I worked in roles that included recruiting, from trainees to execs, and yes, I have a bias if someone has switched roles all the time. Particularly because of what Phil mentions. Especially in larger companies, it easily takes you a year to even get the basic hang of things (if you're coming in from outside). You can't achieve ANYTHING in a year. Not even in two years. Of course the role is a factor here, as is the size of the company.

I don't have a linear CV myself - I dropped out of university (the first time that is), and once quit a job to take another only to go back to the old one three months later as I absolutely despised the new one. No one's held it against, but I sure had to explain it. I was 24 or 25 at the time, more naive and motivated by the wrong factors, but still. I have since removed it as it's not relevant anymore. But these things can kind of chase you for a while.

Early 30s is sort-of-still-ok-if-it's-not-all-perfect, but as said OP, in my opinion, I wouldn't worry about this change now, but you better be sure that next job is something you could live with for 2-3 years cause despite some claims here, some Swiss companies (i.e. those that still operate with a very Swiss culture) may not be so forgiving with someone in their late 30s who's never held down a job for longer than 2 years or so, irrespective of why this was or wasn't.
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Old 08.06.2016, 13:08
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Re: Frequent job change

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I talk to one experienced professional, they tell me "if you hop jobs you don't show commitment". Gives an arbitrary number of years/months/days/hours/whatevers

I talk to another experienced professional, they tell me "if you're not moving around, you don't show ambition". Gives an arbitrary number of years/months/days/hours/whatevers.
Well, everyone in HR knows, the perfect employee is the 25 year old with 30 years of experience

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so job hopping should not be a big problem and need not be a black mark on your CV as long as you have a valid reason for it and doing it for a higher salary is not a valid reason. it makes sense when you are younger but after a while money comes only second or even third. what is more important is how much you like the job, how good is your team and how well you integrate into the team. if all these things are good, then money does not have a big role in the job.
True, money was never the reason for me when I changed jobs - even when I was young. But as you said, if you have valid reasons for short term employments, they're easy to explain should anyone ask about them. Alle a matter of sales

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That's because it is. However, Switzerland, like most of continental Europe is still somewhat old school and so things like job hopping will be frowned upon more than they might be in the UK or US. The same can be said for hands on experience versus academic titles; if you have 15 years experience in a role but no degree, no one will care in the US or UK, here it can still be an issue.
Don't know about UK and US but both points not at all my experience in Switzerland in the past 36 years.
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