Our establishment opened about 2.5 years ago. There are several departments but ours was the only one established with english as the work language. I became head of this department about a year ago when the previous department head left.
No we have a new boss (naturally very swiss) who suddenly wants to change the language overnight. Not in 6 months or 12 months, but now. I can speak the language well enough and write basic reports, but to redo processes, forms and training modules is well beyond my current capabilities.

And because I work in a niche industry, I am f***ed.

I think the only thing I can look forward to is perhaps getting some good german language study in whilst I spend the next 12 months trying to find a job.

Hi Litespeed - that's not good news at all. They will have to be very careful when they fire you. I'm guessing that German wasn't part of the reason why you were hired, so firing you for not having a good enough level of German may be grounds for unfair dismissal.

Just a point though - you have posted this in the market place - if you want someone to give you a job then you'll have to post some info about yourself. If you were just letting us know then I should really move these somewhere else like General. Please let me know

This is one of those threats that is always looming in the wings. My company has English as the official language, but that memo seems to have missed some of my swiss workmates that only have to deal with the domestic market and of course my fench colleagues that simply refuse to admit that there could possibly exist another international language. C'est la vie, n'est pas?
But seriously, maybe it is a little early to pack up the pictures and plants. Being the deparment head, couldn't you delegate the grunt work of processes, training modules and documents to other members of your team? Maybe this would provide you with the time needed to fortify your Deutsch or if your area is in IT, then it would be justifyable to keep your process, tm.... in English.
Worst case scenario, argue the point to have the basic overview in both German and English (we have ours in 3 languages) and keep the bulk in English. Point to bring up:simply for the sake of time needed to translate and the amount of external data arriving on a daily basis, it would require an excessive amount of resources to translate into German(yada,yada,yada).
In this case (specially if the new head doesn't really have a clue of what you do) your power to debate and persuade will be essential.
Good luck and feel him out in order to know how you have to approach him.
Don't forget, someone there thought you capable enough to give you the job and any boss is a fool to give the chop to anyone who was considered capable prior to his arrival.
Lundi

Hey Mark, as much as I am in the market for a new job, I haven't got mainstream qualifications (as I said, niche industry) so I doubt anyone here is going to be able to help me. So feel free to shuffle this post off to General, or even better, complaints.

The crunch is simply this: I am the head of one of the smallest departments, and therefore was never given "Geschäftleitung (GL)" status of the others by the previous boss. Now what they have done is created a GL position for someone else who sits between me and the (new) manager. The person who now fills this new position is good friends with the CEO and practically tells the Manager what to do as well. He is impossible to deal with. He has kicked me out of my office (so the pictures and plants are gone), which means now there is not enough room for all of us in my department workspace. Hence, someone will have to go.

As for the language, his excuse to me is that I (and the others in my department) are paid enough that he can expect German. My response to that is that he (and the manager) are not only paid enough to be able to understand English, but it is the worldwide standard language for the industry. This company has very questionable politics, evident by the extremely high staff turnover.

As for delegation, those in my department with enough experience also only speak english. Only those with very little experience are locals.

As I just said, this guy is impossible to deal with. He is a local, thinks he knows it all, has basically full control and has the full support of the CEO. I intend to speak to him next week and seek to be "released" on the ground of "restructure". I cant afford to resign myself. After all, his new position makes me 60% redundant. That would at least give me the opportunity to study German full-time for a few months which I think is my greatest obstacle to future employment.

If they lay you off, you should get three months to work out your notice. Once you are unemployed, you can get 70% of your current salary, up to a 'salary limit' of something like 105k CHF. That means you could get a little over 70k per year from the dole, for up to 18 months. If you have children, I think you can claim up to 80% of 105k.

The unemployment department will pay for you to do a German course - in fact, I think it might even be mandatory if you are unemployed for any length of time. They may also pay for other courses which you want to do, plus expenses for travelling to interviews abroad (if you can make a convincing case that you have a good chance of getting a job in some other country).

So all in all, I wouldn't worry. The Swiss love of stability and security should pay off for you in this case, in fact the system was designed for 'genuine' scenarios where people lose their job through no fault of their own. If you economise a teeny bit, you shouldn't even notice a dip in your lifestyle whilst seeking work (unless of course you have a fabulous high rolling lifestyle!)


Gav

P.S. Sounds like this new guy is a right w****r. I've met a few in my time here. Something tells me your company could be headed for disaster if people like him are running the show, you're probably better out of it.

Basically, I am going to try and negotiate my redundancy, and I think this company will do it as it will most likely be to a mutual agreement. They can say something like restructure, which is pretty much what it is. I have a 2 month Kundigungsfrist.

I would be looking at around 5K a month on 70%, thats no drama on our joint income. I don't expect a job in a hurry because I have a law enforcement background, and I am not a CH citizen. This could end up proving rather interesting, because in 7 months I am eligible to apply for facilitated naturalisation. Question is, can I then apply for EJPD or KAPO jobs whilst my application is in progress, and if I can, would those applications have any effect on the expedience of naturalisation.

The problem with my company is that their higher management have actually very little front-line experience in their industry, which is relatively new to CH. They are now implementing what I call "Swiss tenure", that as soon as they consider an ex-pat expendable they get squeezed out and replaced by a "local" with limited or no relevant experience.

Just a couple of points here from a non-lawyer. Perhaps Richard (who is also not a lawyer) might be able to tell me I'm talking complete bollocks, but we'll see

My guess is that it would not be to your advantage to negotiate a redundancy. What good would that do you? Not only will the time where you lose your job come sooner, but won't you get less money than if they fired you? Also - if you agree to it, won't that also affect the time you may have to wait for unemployment benefit?

If you do get a nice payout, surely this amount will be deducted from any unemployment benefit you are going to get, which effectively means that your situation will be exactly the same with or without a payout?

If you think there is a systematic system of discrimination going on against non-Swiss (who are all permanent residents I'm guessing) do you think there is any way you can collect evidence about this? I'm guessing you don't have a shred of evidence, but I'm also guessing that this would be very illegal and they would have a case to answer for in front of a court.

Of course your other option is offer to be a good boy and learn German (which they might help to pay towards as well). But that doesn't help if it isn't actually the language issue that is at stake - no matter how hard you try you'll never be Swiss!

Actually, now that I think about it, even if you did learn German it wouldn't help, since they'd insist on speaking Swiss German anyway!

One in five workers in Switzerland is foreign - I wonder why that is? Oh - wait... I know... Because they can't find workers with the required skills in their own country, hence the need to hire foreign talent (such as yourself). They might want to think about addressing the shortcomings in their own education system before firing people like you

Do you mind if I ask exactly what the niche is that you operate in, or are you afraid of monitoring by your bosses? Especially if they look at the sites you may have surfed to in their proxy logs!

Mark

Sorry Mark, but perhaps I was too vague when I said I would try to negotiate a redundancy. By that I meant that I would politely ask that they fire me on a neutral ground (eg. restructure). I cannot afford to resign on my own.

Basically, I can speak the language well enough, but written is still very scratchy. This new guy is suddenly demanding everything in DE overnight. And with the mandatory revision of departmental procedures, record keeping, blah, blah, I cannot be anywhere near as productive at this stage as what I can (and have been) using English. Not to mention that my three senior employees also don't even speak much German at all. This guy refuses to pay for German courses, on the grounds that "we are paid enough that he can expect German". Funny, all his predecessors were paid well enough to speak/read English with no problem. Funny enough his argument was also that my job description is written in German. True, but nowhere in that job description does it demand I speak German!!!

Politics is certainly a factor, but I can't say to what extent. What I do know is I cannot win this one, the key now is an honourable departure. But you are right about the skilled worker thing...I mean, I would never try to tell the swiss how to make clocks, cheese or chocolate, they have hundreds of years of experience. But in this industry its all new to them but hey, they think they know it all.

Sorry Mark, you are right, I am a bit paranoid so I'll have to leave you guessing

I would just wait until they make you redundant. No point in going any earlier than you have to, as you will lose some income when on the dole. Just don't do anything that could give them reason to sack you. When they do give you the notice, you'll have a couple of months at full salary when you can start looking for new jobs in earnest.

I believe you are actually entitled to take some time from work to look for new jobs when you are given notice. It would be a good idea to talk to your local unemployment office about your options as soon as you have been given the notice. It'll also make them better disposed toward you when you turn up looking for cash, the day you are actually made unemployed (IF that happens, you never know).

Then, when/if you're on the dole, start learning German. Also line up other courses/training that might be useful and see what the unemployment people can facilitate.

Of course, as a non-German-speaking foreigner (ie. not German or Austrian), mere German may not be enough. If you don't speak Swiss-German you could find yourself at a disadvantage with many small Swiss businesses when looking for work.

All in all, if you are relying on learning the language to get work then it could be a long haul....... It seems like family circumstances dictate you remain in Switzerland, that's a bit of a pain if you are in niche work.

However, you'll have up to 18 months to work on the lanugage and look for work, with a reasonable income in that time - so as long as you stay positive and apply yourself you should be OK.

Gav

Its done.... On the grounds of staff cuts I will finish up at the end of May. Its a big relief because the stress was really getting to me. No I feel I can spend a couple of weeks relaxing, getting my strength back before really attacking this language.

The key in such negotiations is diplomacy. Rather than telling my boss he is a right w**ker and doesn't have a clue about the real world, I instead told him that with my existing German I did not believe I could be productive to the necessary level required by him. No blame, no accusations, we both get what we wanted.

My only problem is I feel I am abandoning my team; a really good bunch who worked really well together. But they understand and knew I didn't have any real choices.

@Gav - I think as litespeed pointed out here he does speak German, but not enough to write in German. I just wanted to present a counter argument which may seem a bit discouraging to some.

The point is that unless your German is pretty shit hot (and I mean very shit hot) it is not likely that you'll be able to effectively work in an environment where English is not understood.

In my own case I think my level of German is quite reasonable. I've worked in German, given presentations to audiences in German, taught courses in German, etc. However - that's not enough. I can write in German, but the fact is that to do so is extremely time consuming, and when I write I like to try and write properly - not like some sort of pidgen German with every second word an English one.

Therefore if I'm being paid a reasonable amount of money by a company to do a job, and this job involves a lot of writing (documentation, emails etc) I've always done it in English, though people are welcome to reply back to me in German. It just isn't cost effective for the client any other way.

The next hurdle is Swiss German. I never learnt Swiss German and to be honest I have absolutely zero interest in doing so. I worked damn hard on my high German, and while my understanding of Swiss German is "ok", I have no intentions of trying to speak it. I usually insist that meetings are conducted in High German, and when people grumble I also offer them the choice of English which usually shuts them up.

But of course whether you can get away with this depends very much on which organisation and your position within it. I feel very sorry for those people who struggle to learn High German in the classroom only to be thrust into the real world with people who will insist on only speaking Swiss German.

Which reminds me I must go an dig up a great article I found on Swissinfo on this subject and go and post it on that ancient Swiss German thread that nobody really answered. That would be a good place to continue this discussion.

Here's the thread for a German vs Swiss German discussion. Hope to see some of you there!

http://www.englishforum.ch/showthread.php?p=1834

Mark

Wow Litespeed!! I think you made the right decision, very brave of you. In France people take voluntary redundancies all the time, even when they have another job lined up! They usually get a better payout than they would've done had they have been made redundant by their employer and after three months of quitting your job the social services offer you the dole which is usually 85% of your former salary, not bad eh? (you get best of both worlds) You get this for upto two years, by which time you've found a new job...HOWEVER be warned...you only get the dole in France under certain conditions - what are the conditions in Switzerland?

I am under no illusions what I am in for from June onwards in order to maintain my financial security, dignity, sanity, etc...

I will get 70% of my income for up to around 18 months. In that time I must be active in searching for a job, and document said activity. I must participate in training that is offered to me (obvious chose is german, but there are other possibilities).

Basically, it won't be a holiday, as I will be monitored. But that is better than being left alone and struggling to survive.

@ Mark, yeah I think my spoken German is very good, many people comment on it. But to write German means spending 500% the effort I need for English. I have to switch the grammar around, try and work out gender / case, etc..... At work I had my default home page as http://dict.leo.org/?lang=de&lp=ende which made this a little easier, as it gives word translation in context, and offers some short phrase suggestions.

I am quite happy to take part in meetings in Swiss German, but I don't bother trying to speak it. I understand it quite well though.

Don't worry - I know a couple of people on the dole (sponging foreigners, naturally) and they paint a picture of a life of ease. Whilst the Swiss dread being unemployed because of social stigma, if you are an Auslander it's absolutely great. You'll be too busy marvelling at getting 70% of your salary to worry about Swiss neighbours looking down on you.

You'll be expected to make around 10 'serious' job applications per month and will be called in for an approx 1 hour meeting with an employment advisor once a month. You may also be required to attend various courses that they deem necessary, but they only start kicking in after a few months.

By all accounts, the unemployment office people seem genuinely helpful as opposed to the sort of 'get them off the register at any cost' attitude that prevails in the UK. eg. They won't expect you to apply for absolutely any job, you are free to choose only jobs that are your profession. You can also do a 'lesser' job for a temporary period (signing off the dole) and then re-sign on the dole when that job expires. That way, you can spin your 18 months dole entitlement out for ages, if you have to.


Gav

Don't get me wrong Gav, but I actually want to work. Its just that I put 110% into this last job with very little thanks. I want to basically take a time out and concentrate on the language. Then I think I will have a much wider variety of opportunities. I don't want to start at the bottom again.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you wanted to sponge. Just pointing out that life on the dole here isn't as austere as you might think.

This should give you the chance to learn German, without too much pressure on you.


Gav

Hi Litespeed,

Here are a few pointers that you should note.

1. Check your termination letter. This under NO circumstances should reference by mutual consent or anything similar. This negates your right to unemployment money. It should state very clearly that the company is terminating your contract. They actually do not have to give a reason but it is helpful when they do.

2. Next thing to worry about is a reference. I am not been funny when I say this but you need to get a draft and check this. References in Switzerland can be coded (although it is strictly illegal!!!) and it is better if you can get them to write diese Zeugnis ist nicht kodiert. Although few companies will agree to it strangely enough. Furthermore it is now a useful time to ask for a Zwischenzeugnis. If I had not been away the last week I would have suggested you do this before you come to any arrangement but better late than never. Chances are they will provide you with a final reference instead. Do not underestimate how important this document is. If you want to post it with personal things ie company name your name etc removed I will gladly check it for you.

3. Go to the Gemeinde and register unemployed. Oh yes what a surprise the Gemeinde is the first point on the getting yourself registered to be unemployed. You can go at any time once there is a termination letter. If you have not received a letter yet then you will. If it does not arrive before the end of March either physically in your hand or via registered mail a few days before the end of March then you are working another month. A verbal agreement here will not do; it must be in writing and it must be in your hands by the end of March. Note if they post it to your address and you are not in then you will need to collect it from the post office. The date of the termination is then the date you pick it up. My wife got an extra month like this. They sent it registered on the 29th and it arrived on the 30th. Because she never picked it up until the 2nd it arrived too late. Note you can only play this game for 7 days and then you are deemed to have received it.

4. Before you leave your current employer you need to check your insurance situation. There are certain insurances the employer must offer you for a period of 6 months after you leave. I can't remember what they are but think it is accident insurance. Read the fine print and take your time to reach a decision.

5. The first 5 days are deemed to not count. This means you will lose 5 days of benefit at the start of unemployment. The RAV will call you for an appointment within 14 days of the start of being unemployed. You have to take a variety of documents with you and you need to provide them with a complete c.v. including references before you go. You will also need to have your ahv card. They will tell you what you want. The initial interview can take some time and for once in Switzerland do not expect the RAV to be punctual.You can sit here for half an hour without any problem while they drink coffee, smoke a cigarette etc.

6. The RAV will calculate your entitlement based on your previous 12 months of employment. They then divide this figure by 220 and that is your daily entitlement capped at CHF 106K. The unemployment is calculate by multiplying your daily allowance by the number of days in the month so the figure does vary from month to month. If I can remember correctly you get a total of 420 days and thereafter you become a social benefit case. You get 70% of your salary to a maximum of CHF 106k and 80% if you have dependent minors(Children!). If you have kids you can also get child benefit but generally this is not as generous as an employer.

7. You need to go to your bank and open a Freizugigkeitskonto. This is where your employer will transfer your pension contributions to. Your bank will know all about it.

8. Your interview will always be with the same "Berater" and they vary hugely in quality. Some have a chip on their shoulder and check everything. Others are somewhat more flexible. You are left with the luck of the draw here.

9 The forms. There are two forms you will be given every month. One is grey and the other yellow. The yellow form is more or less saying yes I am still unemployed have not worked and am still looking for a job. Note you can work an odd day here or there and fill it in on the form. If your income from working is more than your benefit you save a day. Don't do anything unless it is more than that otherwise you are working for nothing and the RAV still charges you a full day. The grey form is one that details your job searches. Note here that going for a coffee or a meeting with an ex colleague or friend to "talk" about possible jobs should be recorded as well. If you were a manager of anything then they will put you in the Kader bracket and generally that takes longer to find a suitable position. You need to find about 4/5 "events" per month that show you are looking and you need to track them on this form ie applied, went for interview, went for second interview, rejected. Everything related to finding a job goes on this form.

10. As far as courses are concerned they generally start with these after 3 months. But it is very useful to bring it up in the first meeting and play a bit dumb with your German. If you are going to a course then you need to buy a rail ticket to get there which you can claim on expenses. If it is all day you can claim a meal allowance and so it goes on. After about 6 months they might well start to turn up the heat. After about 12 months they will turn up the heat and send you on a 1 month full time find yourself course where they try and help you finding a job. After this they will actively help you by getting you interviews with McDonalds and the like.

Can't think of anything else at the moment other than to wish you good luck but if I do will write again.

Richard

Very knowledgeable, Richard!!! I really like how people help each other here on English Forum! That goes for a lot of people in lots of threads!

litespeed, I have been following this thread, and I sincerely wish you all the best!

After having a threat of being made redundant I allowed myself to learn the law... When with a later employer I was made redundant I knew what I was entitled to and what not. It does make a difference and it is worth investing the CHF 20 or so in the relevant books. Of course if you cannot read German they do not help much.

Another thing I never mentioned is actually taking out insurance, Rechtsschutzversicherung (yes Mark another one!!!) to protect you against legal costs. This is remarkably "gunstig" as you find out when you make your first appointment with a lawyer and find out what the fees are like.

Richard