My husband, three children (ages 1, 2 and 6) and myself are hoping to relocate to Basle with work.

At present we are thinking about living in either France or Switzerland.

We would like to know what combined salary we would require for a good standard of living in either country?

What are the overall financial benefits of living in France or Switzerland, considering childcare costs, income taxes, social security payments and family allowances?

Thanks

That's a pretty broad question you're asking. I'm afraid I can't help much as I will be living in Basel and don't know anything about children. I'm choosing to live in Basel itself as I want to be closer to the town centre and related activities and prioritise this over saving on taxes. I've heard it's cheaper to live over the border in France. Providing some more information such as schooling choices (private?), whether you plan on owning a car, buying or renting property etc may help someone to give you a clearer answer. You may also find 'Living and Working in Switzerland' by David Hampshire (from any online bookstore) to be a helpful read.

How about where you feel happiest??? I made that mistake when I moved out of London, I spent too much time looking at facts and figures calculating how much I can save on council tax etc instead of thinking where I would most like to reside. A Swiss salary will go further in France than Basle but then living in Basle you wouldn’t “need” two cars with the great transport system. I would reccommend looking into education for the kids first (word of advice, dont believe everything you read on the net about Swiss education). If I had a choice I would spend my money in France. But then I don’t have 3 kids to think about.

Thanks for the advice owls, my original email was rather brief as I had three screaming children to contend with, who have now gone to bed. I have read 'Living and Working in Switzerland' and 'Living and Working in France,' but I need more specific information before I can decide whether it is beneficial for us to relocate.

A few articles I have read have commented that a number of people have underestimated the cost of living before relocating and have got into debt as a result. Therefore, any information would be appreciated to alleviate my concerns.


EDUCATION- Our company has offered to pay for our eldest child (6 year old, 7 in November) to attend the Swiss International School, but we think this may not be the best solution as we are hoping to stay here in the long term. I have been told that this may not be the most stable environment for our child, due to the high turnover of students and teachers, and the fact that our child will have to transfer to a state school at a later date . Therefore, we are considering taking the plunge and placing our child directly into a french or swiss state school. For France we are considering Hegenheim, Bloxheim, Hesingue or Leymen, and for Switzerland Aesch, Biel Benken, Therwill and other nearby areas.

I would appreciate it if any one could let me know of their experiences, as I am not entirely happy with this option at present, as neither myself or my husband speak german or french. However, I have been reassured that we may be able to pay a neighbor or student to help our child to learn the language and she may become fluent within six months.

CHILDCARE – my husband and myself will be working fulltime, and as such may need to pay for fulltime child care for our three children; in the event that my mum does not choose to relocate with us. After speaking to a number of people, I am coming to the conclusion that childcare is significantly dearer in Switzerland than in France, and that there are fewer free places and the starting and finishing times are more rigid in Switzerland. Furthermore, childcare costs in France are 60% tax deductible. Is this correct and are the any other factors that need to be taken into consideration.

PLACES TO LIVE – We are currently facing the shall we live in France or Switzerland question? After living in an urban area in England for the last seven years, we were hoping to take this opportunity to bring our children up in a semi rural village and commute to work in Basel-Stadt. (If possible, we are hoping to own one car as we will be working for the same company). We are planning to rent a property for a year to ensure that the children are happy with the local schools, before we buy a property. We have been informed that we should be able to rent a three bedroom property with three bedrooms and another bedroom in the basement or loft for 1000 – 1300 euros a month in Hegenheim, Bloxheim, Hesingue or Leymen and we should be able to purchase a similar property in a reasonable condition for no more than 500,000 euros. Do these prices sound reasonable and are these areas suitable for young families

We like the semi rural areas of Basel, such as Biel Benken which are on the tram line, but we are concerned that we will not be able to afford to buy a property that meets our needs in the long term. As these properties cost over 1 million CHFs. Does this figure sound correct

COST OF LIVING- We are hoping that we will be able to maintain the same standard of lifestyle that we have in England (north), and that we will have enough spare money for leisure activities at the weekend and to save for a rainy day. However, we have very little idea of how the cost of living in France and Switzerland compares to England, so I have no idea what our combined income needs to be. Is there an average wage for employees working in Basel Stradt, or has any one any idea what gross income we would require to have the same lifestyle as an average swiss or french person with three children? The figures I have been quoted have ranged from to 95,000 – 130,000 CHF per person. These figures seem high to me

INCOME TAX AND SOCIAL SECURITY - The cost of housing and childcare suggests that it will be cheaper for us to live in France, but I am reluctant to make this decision without estimating our income tax and social security contributions etc and any family allowance payments before hand. Are there any websites available which provide simple information that can be translated in to English google, or can you recommend a tax advisor who could calculate these values for France and Switzerland please.


Any advice or comments on the above issues or any other related issues would be greatly appreciated, as we need to decide whether or not to accept our job offers shortly and we haven’t got a lot of specific information at present. Apologies for the long message.

It sounds like you are planning this move very carefully. I'm sure someone here will know more about the childcare situation. Children do learn languages very quickly and your children should pick up either French, German or even both with little difficulty. I'm not sure about the average wage as this would very much depend upon the type of job and company but it might be worth checking for similar vacancies advertised with rival companies (if there are any) to give yourselves a rough idea. I'm also from the North of England and can't wait to move to Basel (better pay and seems to be a better quality of life) but I realise it's more difficult when you have children to plan for.

Good luck with whatever you decide

https://calculators.credit-suisse.com/p/d/calc

The above link is for a tax calculator that covers Switzerland. If you have been offered a salary you can use the link to work out the tax you will have to pay. You will need to enter a postcode but you can just pick one from homegate in the area you are looking to live. I don't know of a similar calculator for France.

When we first came over from Edinburgh I was on a good IT contractor rate; since then the demand for what I do has gone down a bit and I have taken a permanent job with my former client. The salary is much lower than the contract rate, however I get other stuff like 2 weeks paid paternity leave, an all-expenses-paid Oracle DBA training course, sick pay etc etc.

We're on two good salaries and while we don't go for two tropical holidays a year or own a sports car, we are still able to save quite a bit and not worry about having a posh meal out or spontaneously flying somewhere for a weekend now and again.

If we were just on the one salary we would have to tighten our belts quite significantly but we would still live comfortably I think.

You mention about maintaining a lifestyle.

In Edinburgh we used to eat out a lot; I think restaurants in Basel can be quite expensive and not up to the standard we found in Edinburgh - so we eat out less and I have been encouraged to cook more at home.

On the other hand we like the outdoors life a lot - walking in the hills etc - and coming to CH has been a real bonus in that regard. We arrived in the middle of the foot and mouth debacle in the UK and I think there were even fences around Arthur's Seat. The sheer amount of clearly marked public footpaths is just great. We live in the middle of Basel and can get to some really spectacular walking country with a half hour tram ride.

Also, if you want to go away to the countryside for the weekend with the kids, we've found some great self-catering places up in the Bernese Alps where you can really escape.

As to where to live and whether France or Germany are cheaper than Basel. I have heard different people come up with different calculations - i.e. some people have found they were better off in CH in the longrun; others France and Germany. For example, accommodation in France is cheaper; but then taxes are higher and you will find yourself needing 2 cars plus you may end up cut off from the expat community and taking part in social activities a bit more of a bind.

Unless you have a very good command of French or German I think initially you would be advised to make use of the expat community. The Swiss folk are difficult to get to know at first (but certainly not all as bad as they might be painted on the Complaints Corner here). Also, while Basel is one of the larger towns in Switzerland, it is in no way comparable in size with an English city. Like I said before, open fields are but a 15-20 minute trram ride away from the city centre. Basel is a very compact town, and (even native Baslers will tell you this) it is definitely more like a large village in atmosphere. If you are in Northern England, it's a bit like Warrington without the chavs (you see a few in Basel - except their bling is often genuine gold plate) or the litter.

I have read many debates on the benefits or otherwise of the Swiss system. With your kids so young, I imagine they will be fairly quick at learning the local language (i.e. Baseldytsch) if they are in a local school. If the kids were much older (i.e. secondary school age) I would probably think a bit harder about the SIS option; especially if they were in the middle of a GCSE programme.

We are expecting our first child in May and (we're Dutch/English) fully expect to put him/her through the Swiss system - we certainly couldn't afford the SIS / ISB school fees. We also see that as a way of getting to know the natives a bit better.

IF you want to live in one of the suburban areas (BTW Biel-Benken is quite a way out) then you want to check out places with pockets of expats maybe - Basel centre, Riehen, Oberwil, Reinach.

If you have the chance, maybe take a weekend or two to visit Basel and get to know the lie of the land a bit.

Cheers,
Nick

Hi there

Interesting to see this thread. We moved from the UK to Strasbourg 8 months ago. I am english and my girlfriend is french.

Whilst Strasbourg is a nice place we are increasingly aware of the comparatively high taxes/social costs in France....painfully so!

If you are self employed it would really pay to live in Switzerland where taxes are lower. However if you're employed by a company in Switerland it might pay (financially if not socially) to live in France.

Its the law here in france (and many places in europe) that you are taxed in the country of your primary residence...so many people work for companies in Basel for example and live in France, hence paying lower Swiss taxes.

I am self employed so i would like to move to Basel, Geneva, Lucern or Zurich. We have similar budget constraints for property but have yet to produce any screaming kids We're just starting to look, visit and learn more about the country....and like you we are making sure we learn absolutely as much as possible to make the right choice....and kids do have the habit (when not screaming) i imagine of focussing the mind to get it right!

For us being 28 and 27yrs old we want to be in a city...or in a suburb within cycling distance. I wish you all the best and good luck...its an exciting time and we never regretted leaving the UK.

If you live in Switzerland and border-cross-commute then you may end up paying tax in two countries at once, and the two authorities horse-trade over how much you pay. You may need two accountants..
dave

How does that work then Dave? Sounds ominous!

Do you mean for any other earnings made in either country?

Hello

Just a thought and please disregard if not appropriate to Basle, as I dont live there!. I live in Geneva and here although lots of people live across the border in france and commute, theres a quite different childcare set up.
In Geneva there are creches run by the ville de Geneve, if you live within the city. These can be very hard to get places at, although we were lucky and have one. There are also some private creches as well where there is slightly more chance of getting into. If not there are some maman de jour (childminder)
In the parts of france surrounding here, I dont believe there are any creches, I certainly dont know anyone who goes to one. there are also not very many maman de jours either, in fact everyone I know who lives in france and works in geneva has had to find a nanny, which can also be tricky if for example the public transport between switz/france is not so great.
anyway, just some thoughts to consider, as I said may not apply to basel at all!

Dear All,

Thank you for all your help, as I am trying starting to pull my hair out as I need to make alot of decisions quickly. I am definitely going to take the advice onboard about living in an expat community and an area that isn't too remote.

I wouldn’t be too concerned and would be rather excited if we didn't have the kids, as worse case scenario we'd just move back to England and start all over again. However, I don't want to make any mistakes that may affect the kids’s education.

We have visited Basel and the surrounding area several times now and haven't been anywhere in Switzerland that we wouldn't consider living. Although, we are probably more selective when it comes to France, as we will need to commute everyday and like the idea of living in a smaller community where everybody knows each other and is friendly.

My main concern is the cost of living and taxes, as there's no point moving here if the family can't benefit from all the activities that are available and the culture.

I'm having real difficulties calculating our income tax for France and have estimated that it will be around 11% with another 11% for social security.

This is much better than I expected, and I hadn't even taken into account the numerous allowances that are available for families!!! Can anyone who lives in France let me know if this sounds reasonable for a family of three, with mum and dad employed, or recommend a tax advisor/accountant please As I'd hate to move to France and find out it's really 40% +.

Interesting I have been told that we will have to pay around 23% income tax and 5% social security, if we live in Switzerland. Any ideas if we will still receive the family allowance payment made by our employer if we live in France I can't image that we'd receive family allowances from both countries.

Thanks again. If we move, I'll try to start some threads that are on a lighter note in the future.

Generally speaking you pay income tax in the country in which you are tax resident (usually where you spend more than 183 days). That would mean if someone lived every night in Switzerland and worked during the day in France, the poor French authorities would be deprived of your income tax on money you earned in France. So there are some special arrangements in place for areas within a certain distance of the border (40km ?), and something a bit more vague for those that are even further away. The important thing is to ensure that you don't end up paying full French insurances and tax on all your income.

This can get very complicated so if you are considering such a scenario, then see an accountant first.

dave

I see...does that apply the other way around too? Living in France and working in CH?

Hi,

We live over the border in France, within cycling distance of the border, and only own one car but haven't lived in Basel so can't, unfortunately, offer a comparison. I have a work deadline for tomorrow so can't reply in detail but am happy to provide more info about our experiences tomorrow or Wed.

Email me privately if all your Qs haven't been answered by then and I'll do my best to help. I read both David Hampshire books too, as our starting point, and it was the cost of the accommodation that won us over and the fact that my French is much better than my German. Much larger accommodation for a much lower price with a garden, but I totally agree with the comments that if you want a social life in the centre you maybe better off looking at places within a tram's ride of work.

Janey
PS You don't need an accountant to do the tax just a bit of understanding how the system works and most banks in the area will even help you accomplish that.

Hi Janey,

I would appreciate it if you could provide some more information when you've got time please. The more help we get the better.

Hi again,

Will try and respond as per Qs so apologies if other people have already replied. We currently manage on one 'non-mega bucks' salary and do OK on it, i.e no hols in Carribean!

Education
Heard the same stories as you regarding the international schools, really would avoid them if you plan on staying long term as local schools are so much better for integrating whichever country you decide on. In Switzerland the children start school later but overall learning averages as you would expect. I've heard that the quality of schools in France is very high and our daughter attends a local creche twice a week and, compared to an English speaking creche in Basel it is significantly cheaper (around two-thirds less!). Creches are difficult to get places for unless you live a bit further out, but there seem to be plenty of recommended childminders so that shouldn't be a problem.

Cost of Living: David Hampshire reckons that it's 25% cheaper to live in France than in the UK but the Alsace is more expensive and I would say on average cost of living is pretty much the same as South England. However, the houses are much cheaper for much larger properties, including a cellar which we couldn't live without now. Petrol is much cheaper in Switzerland if you were planning on running 2 cars though.

Tax it's really difficult to advise on with out having the actually figures but you pay approx 10% of salary in Switzerland on various things: pension, unemployment benefit, sickness etc. I think tax in France could work out quite beneficial for you if you have 3 children and we pay, for example, on the basis of a couple with one child 2.5 parts but the number of parts would obviously increase for you. You can ring the tax office with the Swiss deductions removed and they will calculate the tax for you, based on last years figures. Can you ask what you and your husband's take home pay will be and maybe consider doing that?
Social Security: got hung up on this initially. You don't want to pay this because you have no employer contributions 'cos you'll both be working in Basel, simply take out private medical insurance in France, one of the border policies which covers you in Switzerland, Germany or France. This is much cheaper and around 2,500 euros is tax deductible, some of child care is tax deductible too.
Family allowance you will get in Switzerland and for one child it's 200CHF or more, depending on the company contribution.

I would recommend renting first in the country you choose anyway, as you may feel that you would be happier closer to Basel as there is a lot going on for expats there and it would help you to settle in initially.

If we were in the same position again I would have got the company to give us an idea of the monthly CHF take-home pay per month (with the deduction breakdown as this is relevant for calculating the French tax) and then rung the tax office in St Louis to get an approximate idea of tax in France.

HTH a little.

Janey
PS I suspect the only way you can get concrete help is by revealing the salaries to someone you're happy to trust will keep them confidential. Where are you in the North of England?

Hi,

I am calculating the tax based on 150k CH earnings. Does this include all social contributions like state pension, healthcare etc?

What other contributions do i have to think about? I read that you have to have optional private healthcare and pensions like the UK....what does the private healthcare cost generally?

I am trying to get a clear idea of all costs. The calculator says i'd pay around 40kCHF per year in taxes.

Cheers

Richard

Whats the average wage in IT if your working in switzerland? Helpdesk support role.

123465.432CHF

I love answering these questions.
dave