Hi,

Sorry to be yet another person with a salary question. I have had a number of interviews for a job in Zurich and have now been offered a job. Unfortunately, I was not able to dodge the "what are your salary expectations?" question during interview and foolishly named a sum, which they said they would be able to match (ie, I gave too low a salary, I guess).

I was told I had the job and that the contract would be arriving shortly. Then they phoned me to say that there was a problem because the salary I had stipulated was too low (why is this a problem?!) but that they were negotiating on my behalf.

A number of days later I received my contract. I should be pleased because it is ~15% above what I asked for and represents an ~80% increase on my current salary (the new position is a substantial promotion anyway), but I am still worried that they are trying to stiff me. I have no idea what the position would pay at home, really, so it was just a ballpark guess. The jobs are always advertised as "competetive" and are not listed on job salary comparison sites.

However, I read elsewhere that when you apply for a permit in Switzerland, to protect employees, they check that the salary is fair before giving the permit. Is this true?

I am thinking of trying to argue that Swiss salaries are generally a third or so higher than in the UK and that the salary I originally suggested was a UK salary and so the extra 15% isn't quite sufficient. Do you think this holds as an argument? I should be happy with my salary, but I don't want to start a new job feeling that I have been had and it took them so long to get back to me with the contract that I am not sure what has been going on behind the scenes. From the letter I got, it appears they have been doing a market appraisal for the salary. Or do you think I need to get a life and stop worrying?

Should I be negotiating with my employer about the type of permit?

Is it true that everyone in Switzerland has to take a 2-week holiday at one stage? It doesn't say that in my contract, but I have heard that this is the case.

Any other useful negotiating tips? I still need to ask about the relocation package. I am single.

kfc.

sounded to me like you have a job offer from a bank - two weeks' holiday is typically an internal compliance rule

your vagueness does not help (ballpark figure/rank could get you more feedback) but I believe you're using an agency with some knowledge of the client?

Authorities AFAIK don't monitor salaries for "lowness".

If you used an agency, they get a % of your salary as their fee, so they want you a reasonable salary.

If your salary is too low, you will leave quickly. If its too high, you may not succeed in the role , and the client has a clawback from the agent if you leave within a certain period.

If you don't know what you want, don't be surprised if you don't get it. Without more details its difficult to offer any hard figures (although random numbers can be proposed )

dave

The canton migrations office decide your permit based on work contract type and quotas - not employer, not agent, not you.

I'll repeat, because it is so simple, permit is nothing to do with employer or agent despite what any agent may say...

If you are British etc:
You arrive in Switzerland, maybe start work first, maybe not, but go the local Gemeinde/Kreisbüro (local government office) within 8 days and register.

This is true although in some cases employers put pressure on the authorities for a certain type of permit, to ensure that the employee doesn't get booted out at short notice...

I'm going to go out a limb here:

Many agents lie for a living, they withhold information, mislead, stall and generally mess you around.

The are interested in their commission, not you, and not even the client.

In theory, developing good relationships with both leads to developing business, but in my experience that ain't the case.

Start from the assumption that agents should not be trusted, but allow them to earn your respect. If they shake your hand, count your fingers afterwards.

Luckily, I haved a found a few now that I can trust, but I still get calls from 22year old clueless people reading acronyms at me that they don't understand.

I'm launching this spiel simply to emphasise gbn's point that the agents role in the permit process is minimal, unless you are working through their umbrella company.

dave

Swiss law states that, given a employee has sufficient holiday days in reserve, an employer cannot refuse that they take this in up to 2 weeks at a time. (ie. the employer cannot force holidays to be taken in 1 weeks segments).

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your replies. That's useful to know about the holiday and about the permit.

I didn't apply through an agency and it was the employer who said (after saying that they would be offering me the job) I had stipulated too low a salary and that they had to pay me within the range for the job (and then they seem to have done some kind of research into it), and that this was posing a problem for them. I am assuming that the problem was that they didn't want to pay me as much if they thought I would be happy with less, or does anyone know of a different problem with this scenario?

I have a friend in Switzerland who is a translator and she got about 30%+ more in CH than in UK; looking at managerial salaries in CH, it looks about a 30% difference to me. Since it is a cost of living issue, I would have thought that the UK-CH salary difference would be across the board of jobs, but it seems that this isn't necessarily the case (but surely it should be!).

I suppose my main worry is that, having stipulated too low a salary, the employer is trying to find a way to pay me lower than they had originally intended (I will never make this mistake again!). I am not sure if they have tweaked the job title a bit in their favour [from manager of group of products to manager of major (almost sole) product in that group]. On the other hand, they have been upfront about it, and they are offering me more than I asked for, so perhaps I shouldn't suspect them.

I don't suppose there is really any way for anyone to know, really, what their original intentions were.

Anyway, thanks! I will be glad when all this mental torture is over.

kfc.

It is always a bad idea to agree to play the "you first" game, as you found out.

Anyway, it may be that the company has some sort of works council. This is very common in Germany, less so in Switzerland, and I believe they have less power in Switzerland too. The point I was coming to was that they may have to run new hires by the works council to make sure people aren't exploited, so maybe they have forced them to pay more.

By the way, you know you will be the only KFC in Switzerland, right?

I agree. If they wanted to rip you off, why would they offer you more than you asked for?

Granted you might not be the best paid employee for the level you are being offered, but as you identified really you only have yourself to blame.

Why dont you tell them you have looked more into the cost of living and feel that offer plus X would be more appropriate. See how they react.

Also, if you just describe roughly the role, seniority, size of company, your age and we can tell you if it sounds out of the ball park.

Daniel

Hi tts, Daniel,

Thanks for your replies. Works council sounds probable, because the email referred to "market pricing" in the title. I am not sure if this means I can't negotiate?

The job is in a company of just under 25k employees. At interview I was told I would be managing 8 people, although when I applied for a job of the same title before in CH (which I didn't get), they told me it wasn't a people management position. I am unclear about whether these 8 people are themselves managing teams (my understanding was that they might be, but my understanding during interview was also that I would be negotiating strategy with these people rather than managing them as such; at one point I did wonder if I was being interviewed for 2 positions). If it's relevant, I have a PhD and am 43 years old, but only 4 years experience in this industry (all previous work experience was in academia).
I am actually feeling a lot happier now, thinking that perhaps it went to a work council.

I worked in Germany for 2 years and liked the chicken in the Schnellimbiss there (not sure the Swiss will have anything that common!). I am sure I will find a KFC substitute!

kfc.

I think you (and frankly your employers too) need to be crystal clear about i) where you fit in the org chart ii) what precisely the job description is. This is way too vague for anyone, let alone a 45 year old at this sort of salary level and who presumably sees this as an important career step following a career change, and not just a springboard to CH. If its not a line management position but somehow a fuzzy/dotted role "negotiating strategy" its even more key to understand how you can be effective in the role. If they dont want to/cant answer you should really think twice if these are the right people.

You dont say what sector or if your academic past has a direct value to your role. If the latter is the case and you really have 8 direct reports and you are determining strategy for a significant product ragne then 145k sounds a bit on the low side (certainly if its package incl bonus). Certainly if you have an accompanying spouse and a couple of kids, in Zurich, you wont be living in luxury.

If you are going to ask for "165-170" (which BTW sounds more sensible), save your breath and just say 165. If you mean 170 say it.

Daniel

This is good advice. Ask directly who will report to you and get it in the job description. More people management (especially highly skilled workers means more responsibility and usually more money and status).

If its a commercial and technical job, then I would expect such a role to command somewhere in the 160-180 range. Much less than that then why have the agro ?

dave


I remember reading once, its a very good technique to ask the employer the salary range for the job. Then make sure you end up at least at the top of it. If that means asking for more that their range then so-be-it. Its a game. There's no point in offering the employer a range to choose from..

dave

Thanks for your replies (again!).

When the salary question came up at interview, I did try to dodge it first by saying "I expect to be paid within the normal salary range for this position - could you tell me what the range is?" to which they replied they did not yet have a salary range for this position because it was a new post.

It also appeared at interview that I will have some freedom to define the role myself. On the phone today, it transpired that one of the first tasks will be for me and my line manager to write my job description, basically!

I spoke to them today and when I tried to negotiate, they said that salary was non-negotiable. Should I have argued against that? It seems a bit rude not to believe them and I thought it would annoy them if I still tried to negotiate after they had clearly said "no".

I asked for some further details about other things, so they sent me the details but accidentally also sent the email string where they were discussing what salary to offer me! It appeared that they really did not know the salary range at interview but that they had undertaken some market intelligence or something to get the standard range.

I did think that they were still underpaying me, although this is a large step up for me, so maybe I should be a bit lower. I am thinking that the HR person may well be telling the truth (they have not actually lied to me ever, as far as I can see) in saying that the salary was not negotiable and so I could get round it by asking HR to negotiate for me. If it turns out this isn't possible, I haven't lost.

kfc.

This is starting to smell of total incompetence of their part. Whats the point of creating a new role (which hopefully by definition is therefore to achieve an important improvement in the business) and then not be willing to pay the market rate for the job.

I can understand that they might give you freedom to fine tune the role, but they must have some clear idea of why they are creating the role and how it will fit in the matrix/hierarchy. I have never-ever seen a "DIY" role work out unless you are so high up you call the shots over the organisation of a whole functional area.

Re the salary, I wont tell you how I would feel knowing that they were willfully paying me significantly less than the market for the role and didnt even manage to keep it secret from you. Dont underestimate the cost of living here (wherever here is). There are plenty of threads on that if you search.

The "confident" approach is. Hey guys the market salary is X, if you are only prepared to pay ME Y then Im the wrong person (too good) for the job... and hey there are lots of other fish in the sea (they do think you have other irons in the fire dont they?).

Alternatively, if you are prepared to invest a few hours or even a day or two. Tell them you feel for both parties its important to make the role clear upfront so its a success. Invest the time to work on that with your future boss and people who will be your counterparts. Come up with the role. Revert to "confident" approach having built up some goodwill.

If its a no-no to renegotiate, and you still want to go for it, you can always tell them you will expect a significant review to the market median after 6 or 12 months if the role is delivering what they expect. But you need to be prepared to leave if they dont.

Daniel

Seems to me like the first thing you need to do is sit down and define what you want out of life in career terms and how this job will help you achieve it.

You are being offered a job which is a big step up for you, at a salary which is a very good salary by Swiss standards and an opportunity to help define your role. The job is with a large company so there is bound to be plenty of opportunity for advancement. I would expect that if you are doing a good job you should be well able to push the salary up in the next 12 - 18 months or so, or else find another position within the company. I'd look on that as a good opportunity, not to be missed if it fits in with you career plans.

Look at it from the other side, they are bring someone in from abroad, with an unproven record in this area, to take up a new type of role in their company. And you are expecting them to pay top end of the market rates.... if they do decide to up the salary they may also decide to lower their risk level by finding someone with experience to match the salary...

I you have the same experience and track record as the guys that command the big bucks in this area, then by all means depand the salary and don't accept lower. But if not, just be careful that you are not passing up a good opportunity.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Jim

I do want this job and I can't afford to let the opportunity go. And, let's face it, I was originally more than happy with much less.

I went through a variety of thoughts when I read the email chain discussing my salary. My first one was shock was that even though the salary people had recommended a range they deemed suitable, the powers-that-be had offered me (a bit) less (incidentally, the range the salary people suggested was the range they thought they should offer me, which was within 5% of the median salary; the salary range as a whole was much broader).

My next reaction was to think that perhaps it was reasonable to offer me less, because I am not fully experienced in this position. The following reaction was to think that they had actually offered me the position, so they couldn't think this was too much of a problem and they must actually think quite well of me, otherwise they wouldn't employ me. So why not give me a salary in the range that the company itself had recommended?

I toyed with the "hard play" approach of refusing the job unless they paid me X amount, but then decided this was too risky because I did want the job and didn't want to risk them telling me where to go.

I then wondered if I should leave it and just pretend I hadn't noticed, but in the psychometric tests it had already come up that I needed to gain more assertiveness, so thought that I should probably not show lack of assertiveness now.

So, in the end, I decided on the subtle approach of just replying with the email with the higher salary range in it and asking if they could negotiate for me. I am hoping that this will mean they can still politely say no, if need be, and I can still accept, with neither side losing face, while at the same time giving myself the chance of getting a higher offer.

The whole process has taken 2.5 months with all the interviews, so it has involved me taking time off work, plus quite a lot of stress with having to prepare for the interviews, hide it all from my colleagues, examine how much I want to leave where I am, etc. I don't really want to have to go through all that again! And there are many good things about the company. I would be happy to work for them. And, as Jim said, the opportunities within the company should be quite good (although in this life you can never really be sure about what the future holds). Although some things have gone wrong, generally their interviews have been a lot more professional than some I have had in the past. Fingers crossed that they reply one way or the other on Monday so that I can sign the contract and start feeling happy about it!

Off topic: Does anyone know why I don't have permission to edit my posts?

kfc.

Until you've made a number posts, you can't edit.

The salary you were offered is a good one. A lot of employers have fixed salary bands. It is possible that what you were asking for was below what they pay people with your experience and so they had to up it.

I think you are absolutely right to follow what feels right for you re the package nego.

Please do make sure you are clear on the precise expectations of the role.

Best of luck for the future.
Daniel

my thoughts are that you shouldn't be greedy, you've got the job offer, its a substantial improvement so get on with taking it and justifying a big pay rise next year rather than worrying about where you are now because they may be saving too much money paying you a bit under your UNEXPECTED market rate..